Stereotypes & Labels

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Health Chatter. Today's show is on stereotypes and labeling and how health is affected by it. Should be an interesting show. It's with our gang, the Health Chatter gang. Everybody's going to chime in as best they can with some stories or ideas about this subject. It certainly is an interesting one. We have a great crew, Maddy Levine-Wolf, Eron Collins, Deondra Howard. do great background research for us on all of these shows, as does Sheridan Nygard, who also does our marketing. We have Matthew Campbell, who's our person behind the scenes, who does all our technical work, getting these shows out to you, the listening audience with great music attached. So thank you to you as well. We have Barry Baines, who's our medical advisor. 
on our show today and also provides insights from a medical perspective. And then, of course, there's Clarence Jones, my great colleague who helps me with these shows. We co-host these shows together with the help of Human Partnership, who is a great community health organization. Highly recommend our listening audience check them out. It's an interesting perspective that they take addressing health from a community perspective. You can check them out at humanpartnership.org and check us out at healthchatterpodcast.com. You can see all our research. You can provide a review, insights, questions, et cetera, on our website. So feel free to visit it. So today, show on stereotypes and labeling. This is interesting. I've... You know, I volunteer at a local hospital in the Twin Cities here. And from time to time, I'll see patients that frankly describe themselves particular ways. And it dawned on me, does that affect how health is delivered? And frankly, the question kind of 
bothered me. And then it came. I called it labeling at that point. And then when we were discussing the whole concept, I think it was Barry. I think you brought up the idea of, you know, maybe it's how we create stereotypes. And so I think we kind of put these both together. Aaron did our background research on this. And so thank you, Aaron. And She provided an interesting little story, and she recommended that I read it. And I did read it, and I want to share it with you, the listening audience. And it was from a LinkedIn, and this person said, I attended a wedding a while back of a beautiful young couple. It would have and could have been a beautiful wedding, but I'm afraid the pastor said, 
conducting the wedding ceremony spoiled it for me and for several guests. You see, he carried on and on about wearing makeup, having a drink, or having tattoos are all sins. I wear makeup. I have tattoos. And naturally, being at a wedding, we toasted the bride and groom with champagne. The hell we go. This got me thinking about stereotypes and labels we give people, how our prejudices can prevent us from getting to know and understand another person, how we allow society to dictate what is right, good, and normal. Interesting perspective on that. Matthew, I know you have a story that you said you'd be willing to share with our audience. listening to audience on our podcast today too. Yeah, of course. I think when we start talking about labels, we can self-identify those or people can impose those. And each come with their own set of connotations. And we all bring our own set of ideas and stereotypes to those. And so several years back now, when I was first looking for healthcare, I was freshly 18. I was 
Uh, trying to do the right thing, go see a physician. I was looking, I was interested in getting on prep, which i'm sure most people in the public health arena are aware of. And so i went to my physician. This is in south Carolina. It was my hometown. And I was immediately ostracized almost for even asking about it. My physician didn't really know what it was they never really prescribed it. And then all of a sudden i was labeled as less than other. And I had a behavioral problem that needed to be fixed rather than providing me with the health care that I was looking for. And so I think those labels and how people perceive labels can really shape the health care that is then provided. And I like to think that physicians are above casting stones or stigma or all of those things. But I think too often that's not quite the case. 
Or it's completely dependent on geographic region or like political ideology or religion that is just as impactful on the way people approach their work as maybe kind of like more training that we know of in public health. And so I want to compare that with an example here. I moved to Minnesota. And here in Minneapolis, I got connected with several physicians, a physician group that specializes in LGBTQ plus health. And all of a sudden, the label of being gay or LGBTQ plus and being a part of the community was no longer detrimental to my health care, but rather had quite the opposite effect. It was prioritized. It was here's what, you know, maybe you should be doing. Here's recommendations based on what we know about the community and things of that nature. And it was really had quite the opposite effect. So I just wanted to compare those two experiences while talking. 
can be vastly different based on who is interpreting the label that we may be self-imposed. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. You know, I think what I'd like to do is kind of do a little bit of a round robin here and maybe some insights that each one of us has experienced. So let's start out with Barry. Barry, do you have any thoughts on this from, you know, you obviously were a practicing physician and just in general, your thoughts about stereotyping and labeling. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this. I'll try and keep them under control. So just, you know, give me the, okay, that's, you know, that's good. So really wearing the medical hat At a very high level, labeling and stereotyping, I would say that stereotyping is a subset of labeling. Like most things, as in our research pointed out, it can be a double-edged sword. There are things that can make it very helpful. 
and things that make it not. Actually, Matthew, I think your story is the perfect example of the double-edged sword. Not to say geographically that because you're in South Carolina, it was not so good and then in Minneapolis, it was actually very helpful. I'd like to just break that down because this is something that goes back from a medical history perspective centuries. um and at the very basis this is this is labeling or stereotyping, depending where you go, men and women had always in medicine up to, actually it still happens, so i'm not going to say up until recently, are treated differently within the medical uh care system. And all you have to do is look at a lot of the research that's done. Now things have been changing, 
so there is a bit of self-correcting with mistakes, but almost all research has been done, you know, on men. And, you know, biologically, you know, men and women are are different and so um these broad generalizations of treatment um go across the whole population when that's not the case. And then when we had our our pre you know, meeting to just, you know, talk about this topic a bit, some of us brought up this very idea that in research, labeling can be very helpful because you can identify groups that have specific health care needs depending on, quote, their profile might be. So there is a positive for that. But where I see this thing coming down as being – more on the more negative side for stereotyping is that you make assumptions and you almost de-individualize a person by doing that. I remember reading articles when I was in medical school and in residency, I don't have the citations now, but you could find it, where it looked to group ethnic groups by what they need medically. So that one group, literally one group 
Uh, because they're educated, if you're treating them, you need to explain everything to them so that they can make choices. And then if you're part of this other ethnic group, you don't really have to explain stuff. You just tell them what, you know, what you're going to do and what it, you know clearly people are individuals. And unless you decide to delve in to the individual goals of a, of a person, what they know, what they don't know, what they'd want to know, if you don't have that approach that every patient you see is an individual, you're going to wind up going down a path that's totally inappropriate. And as a result of that, when you go down those inappropriate paths, you're not going to be able to deliver individualized medical care. And necessarily, how do you deliver good medical care if you don't 
you know, kind of wash away this lumping piece that we tend to do to make things more simple and more efficient. So I, you know, and obviously that idea of ethnicity, maybe as a larger group, there might be some truths to it, but every individual in that group, it does not, they don't have the playbook for how they're supposed to be because they're part of an ethnic group. does that even mean? So, Barry, I've got to ask you something, and I'm sure you can reflect on this. When you took the Hippocratic Oath, what went through your mind? It's just like, I don't care. It doesn't go through your mind as a new physician. It doesn't matter who you are. As far as I'm concerned, you are a human being. 
And if you are in the need of care, I'm a physician here to assist. Does that go through your mind? Or do you bring some of your own prejudices, your own ideas into it? The answer is, yeah. I mean, the thing is, you know, yes, because number one, humans are not infallible. Okay. Quite the opposite. And you cannot take a person out of their environment and and the biases that all of us have. And I think actually one, you know, a case in point was maybe it does, you know, depending where you go, the biases in a community in South Carolina are likely to be different than the biases in a community in Minneapolis. Yeah. And the people that are in that carry those biases with them. Oftentimes we tend to say, oh, I'm not, you know, I'm not that way. But at some point, 
subconscious level, I think people treat people differently based on the biases that they have. And that carries over whether you're a physician, whether you're in law enforcement, whether you're a judge in court. And I mean, cases of this built-in bias in our society and the negative impacts it has, you know, will never run out. of the information that supports that. And one of the first steps has to be, if you can't be aware that this is how you're approaching things, how can you change if you don't know where you're starting from? That's a great point. Clarence, I know Clarence, we've talked about this from time to time with the work that we've done together. in the Black community. And we have talked a lot about how that population is at risk for a lot of different things health-wise. And I just wonder whether or not the labeling or the stereotype is how it's affecting that population or stories that you've come across. Well, one of the things I want to share with you is that we are 
As you know, we're part of a human and there's a reason for that because regardless of our ethnicity or where we come from, we are all still human and all have youth. But one of the things that I think that's so important really is that we really, especially in America, we really can't help having these biases because we're inundated by them all the time. The media, stereotypes. Those are the kinds of things that we are often, we're exposed to. And so, you know, when I deal with people and, you know, people come to me and they say, well, I love everybody. I'm saying, you know, you need to check that out because I think that we all struggle. We all struggle. And so I think the, you know, as Mary said, we have to identify those kinds of things and be okay with saying that we struggle with them without feeling like we have to, you know, 
lose our soul in the process. But one of the things, again, as a community member, I often am challenged by this whole conversation that we have about this topic because people like to deny or people like to pretend. And I think that that's so unhealthy, not only for yourself, but also for the people that you're dealing with. I think this whole idea about what we're talking about is going to be important in terms of this conversation. So that's my initial conversation. Yeah. You know, I can relate a quick story. I remember back in the 80s when HIV came to the forefront. And actually, I was working very, very closely with – Mike Osterholm at the time. And we were training physicians on the whole issue. And it really came to the forefront for me, some of the homosexual nuances. I guess it'd be the best way to put this. Insights, uncomfortableness, 
came to the forefront back then. And I'm saying, whoa, wait a minute. And I remember thinking that to a certain extent, the physicians themselves were concerned about their own health and what was going on at the time. And it really came to the forefront for me this idea of labels and stereotypes linked at that time with a very, very hard health issue that we all had to face. Going historically back, if you go back to the ancient Chinese, They only gave their health care to those that were in the higher casts. So there was an identification that was going on there. There were labels that were going on back then that if you were in the higher cast, you were afforded health care. That changed dramatically. 
ironically, with the ancient Hebrews that they thought that health was basically for all. And that's where truly health for all and also a public health stance came into effect by virtue of many things that were going on in the environment at the time. The other thing that's bothersome to me is that a lot of the things that we're dealing with health-wise have an unnecessary, in my mind, sexual connection to them. And I think that for many providers of care, that might... It might. I don't know. It might... give a negative component to our delivery of care and public health initiatives. I think what has helped is people are out front, almost really out front in saying, yes, I am lesbian. Yes, I am gay or bisexual or trans or queer. 
they're upfront and willing to state it upfront and say, geez, you know, it's okay. And you guys, you guys, everybody has to get used to the idea that we are part of humankind too. And so I think that that's a statement that's being made by these communities whereby if I have to be labeled, so be it. And I'm going to be upfront with it. So those are some things that have been popping in my head all these years. Any other thoughts from Sheridan? I know you always have some great insights. I think that was a great time to bring me in. So I am engaged. I have been engaged for a long time to a man. However, I identify as bisexual. And so I think I am an amazing person. 
of how I present as somebody that is hetero or that passes as straight. And people are quick to label me as straight, but really my lived experience and who I am and where my attractions fall, I am bisexual and I have my whole life. So this is something that a lot of people struggle with in my life because I have a wonderful loving fiance that is a man. And so I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding how that can mean that I am still bisexual. But I think it opens the door for conversations with a lot of people. And by the end of the conversation, they're like, yeah, I do think that you're bisexual. I do think that you're gay. So I think it's just I think I'm a good example of don't judge a book by its cover. Don't label a book by its cover. And I do I do think that there are stereotypes for straight people that I fall in under and I fall under stereotypes for bisexual people. I have a nose ring. That's a common one that people make a joke about. 
And even a common stereotype about bisexual women is that they are dating or engaged or married to a straight man. So I fall under that stereotype too, but that doesn't diminish my experience by any means. But yeah, I think that was a great time to call me in, Stan. Yeah, yeah. Deandra, any insights from your life? Yeah. So I don't think I've had a lot of health experiences dealing with this. But I guess I would say just like being a Black woman in general, I'm very hyper aware of certain stereotypes or certain health conditions or concerns that will come up regarding my health just due to being a Black woman. So I think how I kind of like and having... Just my father's a nurse. I have a lot of people in my life who are in health care and just being, like, aware of those things. I think it helps me be really open with those kind of conversations when they come up. Just, you know, regarding, like, my health and everything. I think it also helps when I'm talking to family members if they're not really... 
they don't really have a healthcare background. They don't really know if, you know, they will ask questions and things. I think it helps me in the sense of just like being able to kind of reassure them of things. And I think sometimes when you don't have that kind of background and maybe a physician or a nurse is coming to you and saying like, oh, you know, like telling you, you might have like things that to look out for, like that are related to black people, specifically like high blood pressure, cholesterol, things like that. I think when you don't have that background, sometimes you can feel a little attacked or singled out. But when you do, and I know that these are just things that are like very prominent in our community, it's helpful to, you know, let them know like, hey, they're just kind of, this is kind of what they're taught. This is something that they're asking all of us. You know, this is not something they're singling you out on. So I think sometimes, yeah, 
like those labels, if you're not really aware of like healthcare or just certain things that are prominent within our community, it can kind of feel like you're being singled out. So it's really helpful to have people with a voice to kind of just, you know, reassure you that, you know, there are like, I think a lot of people are afraid of like, you know, doctors and, and things like that. Or they feel like maybe they're not being told what they think they're they want to hear and think. So I think that's really important. Yeah, you know, thank you, Sharon and Deandra, for those comments. Matthew, you bring up a really interesting concept in our chat. He says here, I think labels can sometimes create community when it can't be found otherwise. You want to comment on that? I think it's a great point. Yeah, I just think labels 
sometimes like a pro of labels is we can, you can find like-minded folks. You can share identities you can share things that you know about each other, but also you can, you know, share the hardships that you face because of those labels or identities. And so oftentimes when we think of like labels, especially in the lgbtq plus community, um, you know, I think of like people who have been, you know, kicked out of their families, or they can't find that support in that way, it's, you can rely on your label, you can rely on your community with other folks that have that same label to support and uplift. And I think that can be really empowering. And I, yeah, so I think you can find a community if you don't, if you can't always find it elsewhere. And so I think those are kind of one of the more of the pro sides of labels. But on the converse, what that does is it creates, 
that label stereotype, in a sense. It's like, ah, well, look at those folks. They all dress the same, they all look the same, they all talk the same, they all act the same, etc. And then that is then negatively used harmfully. So, I mean, I'm not sure that this situation is isolated just to health care i think this is speaks to like a larger systemic problem that we have um in society of the idea of other. Someone always has to be the other. And i labels are a way to identify the other, I think. Yeah, go ahead, Clarence. Anybody that knows me knows I'm a very conservative person, right? You know me. But one of the things that I have learned in this life is that I am more concerned about your character and how you interact with me and how you treat me and I'm going to treat you as a human being. That's one of the reasons why, again, I go back 
for the whole idea around human. But I think that part of what I like about this conversation is that we can have this conversation and still treat each other with respect. And many times when we have these kinds of conversations, we like to bunch up and say, well, this is our side, that's your side. And so I just want to tell the group that I appreciate you for that and that I'm enjoying this conversation. And I think that it's important to identify yourself and some of your values and what you believe in. And people have to be willing as another human being to respect that and to be able to walk away and still be able to communicate with each other. You know, yeah, thanks, Clarence. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. You know, I remember fondly when I first met Clarence. It's just like, you know, we've been... 
kindred souls, brothers, colleagues, friends, you name it, since then. And, you know, if I was blind, I'd still think of Clarence in such great ways. And frankly, the same goes through with our whole HealthShatter team here. I mean, it's just like, you know, I can't tell you who Who you are, how you identify yourselves, or for that matter, how you go about living life. Frankly, I appreciate because it's made me as a person stronger and more insightful. And I hope that this is what this topic is getting towards. Let me say this again. This is what makes this group so powerful. is the fact that we respect each other, regardless of where we're at on the scale, whatever the spectrum is. We've come to a point where we can intersect, we can talk about things, and we can, you know, we're working to make our communities healthier, right? And part of a healthy community is being able to talk openly and freely about things, whether we agree or not, about and still walk away realizing that we're dealing as human beings with each other. 
And so I just want to say this again is that I love this kind of conversation because it's freeing, it's freeing, and it's an awareness and it's opening us up to have even more and deeper conversations. You know, and in many ways, you know, hopefully our health chatter team can help set an example for others. You know, I mean, we come from so many different backgrounds, just all of us here. And hopefully that's a wake up for a lot of people. You know, all of you, I want to bring this up. I have noticed, you know, in my career, you know, certainly with the email, you know, how people sign off. And it's important that they, you know, for some people, it's important that they sign off that, you know, he, she, they, it. 
lesbian, gay, you know, it's an identifier in your actual email. Thoughts about that? I mean, is it, go ahead, Matthew, take it away. Yeah, I think pronouns, everyone has pronouns. And I don't think that is something to be controversial, even though sometimes it can be. Everyone wants to be identified in some way, shape or form. And I think the email thing is, simply a way of saying, hey, these are my pronouns, regardless of what my name is. This is how I would like to be addressed. And I just think it's common courtesy now just to go ahead and include them just for the simple fact of it. One doesn't create an other for folks who may not feel comfortable sharing their pronouns or their pronouns maybe don't quite align with their appearance in a way that might traditionally one might traditionally think, which isn't a problem. But just to say that, like. 
it's something so simple that we all can do just to create a more inclusive environment. And I think that's how I approach a lot of my work. It's not about necessarily what... I'm not here to debate someone else's existence. I'm here to create an inclusive environment for other folks. And so if I can do something as simple as including my pronouns to let other folks know how I'd like to be identified, but also say, hey, this is a welcoming space to also share your pronouns, then... Go for it. I'm just go for it. Right, right, right. Hey, Barry, what do you think? I mean, you know, I mean, you and I are, you know, from a generation where, you know, we never saw this. And now, you know, we're seeing it. But Stan, you and I and Clarence, too, we like to learn new things. Absolutely. I like to think that at times we can be, you know, be pretty open. I actually want to just build on a couple of things that Sheridan and Matthew said about 
Number one is, you know, with Sheridan, you can't judge a book by its cover. And that is, you know, that really is so true that appearances, they say appearances can be deceiving. And that what you see with any kind of appearance, you automatically can easily fall into label or stereotyping. And then the other piece is, And I'll be one of the... Oh, Barry, you're broke. We'll have to cut that out. Yeah, all right. I'll take over. Barry, you'll cut that out, right, Matthew? All right. So, you know... one thing i've also noticed is um people people don't necessarily all right barry you cut out so we're gonna have to go back to you so you know one thing i've also noticed is that um people identify not just by one thing like sexual orientation or pronouns or whatever but also by religion okay I'm Jewish, I'm Catholic, I'm Protestant. I'm whatever. How do you think those labels might affect a person's health? How people perceive them? How they look at them? Et cetera. Any thoughts on that? Anybody? You know, I I think people are always trying to figure out a way to identify or else separate themselves from others. And if you're a type of person that wants to feel special, then you'll find ways to make that happen. I personally, in my personal life, try so very hard never to do that, not to do that. I'm not perfect by any means. You know, I just want to know who you really, really are. And I tell people that. I just want to know who you really, really are. Tell me what you really, really think. I mean, for me, that's important because what I want to do, especially in the work that I'm doing around health, all of us need this. And it's so important to be able to have a honest conversation so that you don't have to guess about stuff. And so even with people that are of different, 
ideas, whatever those differences are, I'm still trying to figure out ways to make it happen. Now, that might be cool by IS, you know, whatever, but that's just the way I want to live in that kind of way. So, to me, again, I know who I am, and I know that other people don't believe or think or act like I do, but that's okay. They're still worthy of being respected, and that's That, for me, is the important thing. Yeah, any other, and I agree with that. Any other thoughts on labeling, stereotyping in other arenas, like religion, for instance? Any thoughts on that? No? Okay. Oh, I can go ahead for just a second. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Sharon. I think it's it's obviously it's religion, it's ethnicity, it is race and it is age. Like we think about even, you know, we like to joke on this podcast a lot. We're the young ones. You guys are the old ones. Like, it's really easy to. But really, I have one hundred and three year old participants. They would look at you and they would call you young. So really, in the scheme of things where we label ourselves, where we label other people. 
It is so subjective. And when we think about even religion, you don't know in the scheme of things how involved they are in their church or their practice or in their community. Or I even think about immigrants a lot, where they may have come from a culture where it's completely immersed in their culture, and now they're here, and it's different. And you may go to the same church here, but it will be with different people and a different culture, and things will be practiced differently. And so I just think in the scheme of things, really like zooming out and looking at the bigger picture, we have no idea where people are or where they fall unless they tell us and communicate with us about that. And that's why I think the pronouns in the emails are a great opportunity to just effectively communicate clearly with no ifs, ands, or buts. This is what this person would like to be labeled as. That's just my two cents on it. 
You know, I think, you know, to a certain extent, all this stereotyping, labeling is really connected to perspectives. And, you know, what's your perspective on this person vis-a-vis yourself? OK, how is it that that you compare and contrast with one person or another? How is it that you embrace that? differences, whether it be cultural, whether it be sexual, whether it be community, etc. How is it that you embrace them? And how is it that those levels of embracement have changed? I think labeling and stereotypes also is connected to good, bad, or indifference, the political arena right now. And to me, that's to be honest with you, sad. Barry. I hope my audio is working now. It's back. Yes. Okay. I think, you know, to that point, understanding what groups or labels that people identify with from a medical perspective, the $64 question is asking that person is not, I think, not just putting the onus on the 
you know, on the person to bring that up, but as a medical provider to understand how their identification with the group, how does that in any way, shape or form, I'm talking about more broadly, how does that impact the health care that they seek or what their health care needs are? And because that way you could say, oh, you know, oh, you're Jewish, but that doesn't really impact what kind of healthcare I want, or I'm Muslim, it doesn't impact that, or I'm in the LGBTQ plus community. How does that impact that? More often than not, it will be very revealing because then they'll make you a better healthcare provider, whether you're a physician, nurse practitioner, nurse, et cetera, by understanding the impacts of that labeling or stereotyping or community that people belong to 
and their health beliefs. There's an intersection with that. And I go back to that idea of cultural humility. I think it's much broader than that, is that the health care system would be much better served, as will our communities at large, by just bringing that information into the fore. And the fact is, we're becoming more and more aware of our differences and how that might impact us. While at the same time to, to quote the famous Clarence Jones, you know, we are all human and we certainly share a lot more in common, but even with that, having that empathy and understanding and a more humble approach to things could help us all, you know, be better and, and do better and do better. So that, that's. I agree with that. 
Actually, I agree with everything that everybody said today. It's great. Last thoughts. Matthew. I just kind of want to propose a quick question. We've talked a lot about how impactful and powerful labels can be and how negative they can be in other scenarios. But I think the reality, unfortunately, is kind of like Barry mentioned, we're focusing a lot on people's differences lately. And so I'm questioning like in a world that is so divisive, Where do we go from here? How do we navigate? What do we do? How do we... Because sometimes it can often feel challenging to work with other folks or when everyone is so divisive. You know, it's interesting you bring that up. I have... I've been promoting this. I said, wouldn't it be great if we had a worldwide chill-out day where everybody just sits down, relaxes for a second, 
and realizes what Clarence has touted through Hugh Mann, H-U-E-M-A-N, that we're all in this world for, you know, a relatively short period of time. Let's get together and be decent to one another. You know, put decisiveness away. You know, it doesn't matter. I could... I could disagree with you, but that doesn't mean that you still aren't a good person. You know what I mean? We can't agree on everything. So you bring up a really important point, Matthew. Stan, let me let you jump in real quick. While Matthew was talking, I'm in the car, and so the record came on that says Loser. And as he was talking, I was thinking about the fact that if we had a world... worldwide chill-out day, some people would fight against it because they would consider us losers because we're looking and searching for some type of peace. And for me, one of the things that I seek in my life is I don't do drama. I don't do drama very well because I don't seek drama. And I think that when you get to a point where you can ask a person to seek who they really are 
give them respect them for whatever wherever they're at you know and can be and can be cordial and civil towards them that's what I seek for so when I think about this late this whole topic of labeling and and you know and stereotypes I try to find commonality you know yeah you know you don't have to be my friend but maybe can we be allies is another thing that I that I use and so I That would be my last comment. I just, I really do honestly appreciate every comment that was made here. It was open. We were vulnerable and we had a chance to say what we had to say. Yeah. And I respect it. And I respect it. I do too. I do too. Deandra, thoughts? Deandra, I think, 
She might be off. Okay. Here's my last thought. Maybe behind all of this is a simple smile. If we can all smile and think about how it is that we can put our arms around each other and appreciate each other for what we all bring to the human equation, maybe that's what it's all about in the end. So, carry on. Everybody carries on with some positivity going forward. Our next show coming up will be on telehealth, which is also an interesting subject. Certainly post, you know, the COVID craziness that we've all faced, but it certainly has implications for health. So in the meantime, everybody health chatting away.