Toxic Relationships

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Health Chatter. Today's show is on toxic relationships, which is an interesting title in and of itself. I'll get into the kind of the ins and outs of the word toxic. I hadn't heard that, frankly, when I've ever talked about relationships. I never thought of it as toxic, but we'll get to that. We have a wonderful guest who's with us from Chicago, Illinois. We'll get to her in just a moment. I have a wonderful, wonderful person. I have a wonderful crew helps us do these shows. Maddie Levine-Wolf, Erin Collins, Deondra Howard, Matthew Campbell, Sharon and Nygard. They're all second to none. They help us with our research production and getting the shows out to you, the listening audience. And also my, 
They are a wonderful, wonderful team. And Clarence and I consider them true colleagues. Really, really good. Don't forget Dr. Barry. And Dr. Barry. Well, I'll get to him. Don't forget Dr. Barry. Dr. Barry. Dr. Barry Baines is our medical advisor. And he gets, he'll hopefully be on a show on the show today. He'll, he's probably going to come in a little bit later. Yeah. But also sometimes if we have medical issues that we're talking about, he can provide some insights into that as well. So Barry is with us as well. And then of course, definitely second to none is Clarence Jones, my true colleague in doing these shows together. We do a lot of chatting. Actually, we did a lot of chatting even before we decided to do Health Chatter. 
Exactly. Now we continue it. And it's been a wonderful, wonderful thing for us, for all of you. And hopefully you're all enjoying it. We also have Hueman Partnership, which is our sponsor for these shows. You can check them out at huemanpartnership.org. It's a wonderful community health organization that does wonderful things in the community around health. Check them out. You can check us out at healthchatterpodcast.com. And feel free to leave some reviews if you like the show or you don't like the show. Hopefully it's on the like side. And also if you have any questions, feel free to put them on our website. We'll turn those around as quickly as we possibly can. And also our research that we do for these shows is attached to the shows itself. So you can read those and also see the different sites that we've used to 
get some information about them. So there we go. So with that, Maddie, I'm going to have you introduce our wonderful guest for today. Thanks, Dan. Yeah, we're really excited to have Jordan Scorpio on today. She is the Director of Community Education at Shalva, which is the oldest Jewish domestic abuse agency in the United States. Shalva works to break the cycle of abuse by giving survivors the support they need and educating the community about intimate partner abuse. Jordan joined Shalva in January 2020 with a specific focus on creating a prevention education program for young couples, which hopefully she will talk about later on in the episode. The program is called Seven Circles and has already reached 150 couples. Outside of Shalva, Jordan is also involved in a lot of different things, 
within the space, including the Illinois Coalition Against Domestic Violence, Run Domestic Violence Out of Town, and the Chicago Network Advocating Against Domestic Violence. So welcome, Jordan. We're really excited to have you. And I know we're all looking forward to this conversation. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. This is great. Yeah, thanks for being with us. You know, I'll tell you, the subject of IGRAD Back in my career, it was abuse and neglect. And I was involved a lot in child abuse, abuse and neglect, on the prevention, the identification of it, et cetera. And to a certain extent, it's really sad that we still have to have conversations around this subject. But on the other hand, when you're dealing with human interaction, 
It's almost inevitable that there's going to be highs and lows. And unfortunately, we're going to be talking a little bit on the low side today, but at least hopefully how we can address it in a healthy, healthy way. So thanks for being with us. So, all right. Before the show started, I mentioned to Jordan this whole idea of toxic. And that never was in my kind of my mind. it's more approachable for young people to think they're in a toxic relationship rather than an abusive one. And not just young people. You know, we have plenty of clients who have been coming to Shalva because they're in abusive relationships for years and they never want to label it as abusive, right? So those terms are scary, but toxic is something that's a little more... 
a part of the culture. It's easier to say, oh, I was in a toxic relationship with this guy. And the reality is domestic abuse is something that happens to young people at a greater risk than any other age group. So young women between 18 and 24 are at highest risk for being in an abusive relationship. But when a lot of people think of abusive relationships, think of domestic violence, they have this image of an older married couple, physical abuse, happening to other people in other places, not me, not my friends, but that's not the reality of this. So a term like toxic of relationships, something that's a little more culturally appropriate is, or like culturally something that's a little more culturally relevant to young people. It just makes it easier for them to talk about it easier for them to feel like, oh yeah, this is something I've seen. This is something I've experienced rather than abusive relationships, you know, domestic violence, things like that. Interesting. 
Let me say something real quick. First of all, Jordan, thank you for that, for that explanation. And I'm a fatherhood practitioner. So I deal a lot with fathers and families. And so we run across a lot of these things. And so, you know, when, when people have used the word toxic, they didn't explain it like you just did. You know, it's, it's always like, it's a, it's a hammer and a nail kind of thing. And so, so thank you for that. I do think that part of the work here that we're trying to do is to really get people to enter and to communicate and to enter into the question so that we can actually make changes. You know, I think so many times people will use relationships to punish one another. And that's not really what we're trying to do. We're trying to be able to communicate with each other and trying to figure out how do we... 
help families to communicate and to treat each other with respect. So thank you for entering. That's how I want to start off by saying all those kinds of things and realize that there are a lot of people that are addressing this issue and using it from different terminology. Sure. And I love that so much. I mean, I love working at Shalva because I like to say, I don't do the hard work. I'm not doing direct services to our clients who are survivors. But I get to learn from our clinicians who are doing that work. I get to hear the red flags that their clients talk about. Oh, I wish I recognized this was not okay early on. So I could have gotten out earlier. And then I get to think about that and translate that into programming that we do in the community to help prevent this from happening in the future. So Shalva really encompasses all of that. And I think all of those things are important for the now and for the future in our community. 
I want to ask one other question. Go ahead. It appears that, and Sam said this a little bit earlier, but it appears that we didn't talk about this topic as much as we are talking about it now. In fact, it seemed like at some point in our history, it was just kind of an unspoken thing that happened in families, and people kept that in mind. kept that among the, you know, we'll keep it in the family kind of thing. We're talking about it now. What, what has made the change? I mean, I know that it's always existed, you know, I'm glad that we're talking about it, you know, but it just seemed like there has been just an explosion in terms of this topic. And can you share a little bit more about what do you think is happening in our society? Yeah. I mean, I think it is societal. I think people are, are 
bringing this conversation into light and sometimes in positive ways and sometimes in not so positive ways, but all of it can be translated into the positive. We actually, we just had an event that was focused on the media and how the media portrays domestic abuse. And more often than not, it's kind of in a not so great way where it is those traditional kind of black guys and bruises where we know so many abusive relationships that's not at the core of it. So a lot of survivors out there might be getting mixed messages. But either way, we're getting the conversation started. Right. I think that people are feeling more and more empowered to have these conversations, to talk to their friends about it. And a core to our prevention education is giving people the tools to ask their friends or loved ones if they're OK. You know, getting them to think about. 
I noticed this red flag. I had this weird gut feeling. Let me ask a question. Let me think about how to approach this person in a way that feels safe for them. And like, I'm in a safe space for them. And I think that that is something that just more and more people are getting comfortable with. And so we can have these conversations in an easier way. And we hope that that continues. I think there's also, I mean, there's so much going on in society, right? Like you talked about, you know, talking to fathers, like let's, let's empower the good people out there who are doing good things, the fathers out there who are doing wonderful things. Let's talk to them about how to talk to their kids about healthy relationships, right? More and more that we can be doing those things. And I think that is becoming a little bit more of the conversation as well as getting parents, fathers and mothers to be talking to their kids about this in a healthy and comfortable way for them. So let me ask, I'm kind of, 
connected to this idea of toxic. It seems to me that there's levels of toxicity, right? Like there were different levels of abuse, okay? It's like there's the physical and the mental, but there's levels of physical, there's levels of mental. So how is it that you deal with the kind of the levels of toxicity? in relationships. Yeah. And this is what makes it so hard for somebody to realize they're in an abusive relationship, right? Especially early on in the relationship, there might be red flags, but they're surrounded by a lot of great things happening or they're not so bad in the beginning. If you go on a date with someone for the first time and they immediately start calling you fat, you're going to know that's not okay, right? But if you have someone who compliments how you look on the first date and 
and the second date and the third date, but then the fourth date, they say, you know, I think you looked better in that other outfit. And they start, it gets a little insidious, right? It gets a little bit, the red flags, the yellow flags, you're kind of talking about, right? Those unhealthy behaviors start creeping in a little bit and then they might stay yellow flags and that's not okay. And they might continue to escalate, but it's important. A lot of the conversations we have are about those early yellow flags. and recognizing what those might look like early on and to not ignore them. But I can tell you like the number, I believe almost every month, the number one page on our Shalva Cares website is this page we have healthy, unhealthy, abusive. And it's all these examples of these three stages. And what we talk about a lot in our educational programs is unhealthy relationships might mean that 
You and your partner are fighting about finances. You don't agree about how to spend your money. Abusive relationships are when one partner has all of the control over the money. The core of it is power and control and one partner having all of that over the other partner. That's the abusive piece. The unhealthy things that might be going on in a relationship, they won't be about that power and control, but it might be that you're not compelling on a lot of things like finances or like where you want to live or whatever that might be. So those unhealthy things, they're a little bit more back and forth between the couple. You might be fighting a lot about it. The abuse is when it's one has control over the other. So let me ask you this question. This, this might seem a little bit strange, but anyway, I'm okay. Do you think we try to fall in love too quick? I think that, 
Society has framed love in a really interesting way. I love telling... One of my favorite things to tell parents about this topic of talking to your kids about healthy relationships is you can start super young. And when you're watching a Disney movie with your kids and those young women are falling in love with young men head over heels in a day, you can say, that might not feel good in real life. You can start pointing out that those... quick love, the sparks, all of those things that we talk about in Disney movies and in movies for adults and on TV shows and all of those kind of models that we see, that might be the reality for some people, but it's not the reality for a lot of people. So I definitely think that there is a component of that. And I think also, I myself am 35 and I've noticed among the friends 
like a lot of my friends are married and some of them are not. And there's a piece too, as you get older, like thinking about the pressures of getting married, having children, all of those things. And kind of that, that clock that women have, if they want to have children and compromising on some things and maybe choosing to ignore some red flags they might see because of the other timelines that they have in their life. Now, this is a health podcast and I know plenty of women who have gone through IVF or have had children on their own. And it's so beautiful where science is now. And so I think we're moving in a great direction in that way also, because I certainly know, I have a couple of examples in my own life of people who maybe, you know, got married too quickly just because, and ignored red flags because of, you know, what they wanted in life. Yeah. Thank you for that. Let me ask you, how do you, you know, there's a lot of different things that are kind of potentially, potentially yellow flags, red flags. 
whatever flags, okay? And it seems to me that life in general has its ups and downs on just about any of these things. Like, you know, I'll just read a couple here. Is aggressive, distressful, or mean? Okay, well, you might have a bad day. Do you know what I mean? And you can get into that kind of a mode. Doesn't listen to you. Or some of us might call it selective hearing. Okay. Embarrasses you or demeans you, maybe in a kidding way, but not in a really intense way. These things seem to kind of ebb and flow. So how do you, as an expert in this area, make judgments on when it is truly appropriate that good? Yeah. Well, to start, I have so many things to say. That's a great question. So first, I always tell people, like I've been doing this work for a long time in the prevention space. I don't know the answers. Like my encouragement to anybody listening and wondering about a relationship, whether it's their own or somebody else's, is to call somebody. Call a helpline or 
Our helpline is a very warm line. Anybody can call. We're based in Illinois, but if anybody calls and is just looking for, to know, is this unhealthy or is this abusive? We can answer some of those questions right away and direct you to a resource, whether it's us or someone else, depending on what's going on. I always want to talk about lowering the barrier it takes to call a helpline because I think everything is not, nothing is black and white in this situation. So it's so important to reach out to somebody who is expert. And I I've been doing this work and I'm not even an expert, but some of the things that we talk about are, is there a pattern to what's going on? Is this, is this, and does this feel, you know, it all goes back to power and control. I do, you know, if what I like to say personally is like, if you ever feel unsafe in your relationship, that's a no-go. 
Right. Like that should be a hard line. If you and your partner are fighting and you feel unsafe about what's going to happen, that's not OK. If you and your partner are fighting and it's annoying and you guys are not on the same page about something, that's that's kind of a different story. Right. So some of what you what you just stated, some of what you listed, some of those to me are red flags. And then some of those are yellow flags that maybe the relationship's not right for you. And I just, you know, Maddie mentioned Seven Circles, the program that we launched. And this program is a self-guided program really geared towards couples in their 20s and 30s who are in a relationship together, thinking about maybe they're engaged, thinking about getting engaged, kind of that space, helping them have conversations that are hard for people to have, like around finances, about family history. We really give them intentional content to have those conversations in a way that we wouldn't otherwise probably. And 
we're also giving them tools to better communicate. Now, we know that there are some couples who are going to go through this program and maybe realize they're not compatible. We know that that has actually already happened. And that's a success too. It's not abusive, but if you're not compatible, if you don't see that you and your partner are communicating about these things that are core to a long-term healthy relationship, then it's good to have that conversation early on in your relationship, right? Before... the ups and downs really start coming before you have to think about finances and children and family, aging parents and things like that. Figure these things out early in your relationship is really key. And just lastly, to your other point, because I can't stop talking sometimes, I like to use this example. My husband and I, we are both very sarcastic people. We can say something to each other 
in a joking way that is not at all offensive to either of us. Now, another couple where there is maybe some emotional abuse going on, if they say the exact same sentence that maybe I've said to my husband, if somebody says it to their husband, it actually might be really uncomfortable for that husband to hear. It might make him feel demeaned, unsafe, not OK in that relationship. And it might really knock him down. it's about how these things are, or we're experiencing these things. It's about the context of the relationship. You know, that's that. Well, let me say the same real quick. She said some, a couple of things that, and this is called chatter. So we, so we do break in every now and then. I could talk forever. So I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no. I wasn't saying that, but, but the whole thing about respect, you know, I think that, that, you know, when we, we took a look at the, um, um, 
a lot of the things that you don't talk about, red flags, yellow flags, those kinds of things. It seemed like there is a element called respect that you have. And you and your husband, you respect each other, but you can be sarcastic. How do you help people to understand respect is one of the core values that they must have in a relationship as you're talking to couples? Yeah, great question. It is so core, right? And I think... you know, the way Seven Circles is set up is like some of the situations are like topical, like I mentioned around finances or religion or children, but some of them are communication. Some of them are healthy conflict, which we can talk about that I think is so important. So we're talking about these tools in situations for them, right? So they're getting the communication tools. They're talking about respect. They're learning about respect. And then they're actually implementing it 
in these topical conversations, which is really, really important. And I might repeat myself several times now that I'm, I think I've already said it before, but trusting your gut is like the most important thing. Like if there's one takeaway from this conversation, I feel like trusting your gut is so core. And I think that goes to respect. If you feel disrespected in your gut, that's not okay. It's a gut feeling and it's different for everybody. Yeah. I was saying this once again, and I'm gonna say something real funny. It's, it's very, it's okay. Very, very interesting, but people will, will put up with stuff because he's so cute, you know? And I think that those, one of those are things that you have to, you know, talk about or bring up as well. So anyway, I'm finished Dan, your turn. 
Well, can I just add, not only like he's so cute, but this is something else I love talking to parents. I love talking to parents because I think parents teaching their kids from a young age about healthy relationships is so important. And a tip I have for parents always is like, there's a fine line between loving your kids' relationships and then allowing an opening for your kids to come to you if something's not okay. So like we work in the Jewish community. So that kind of stereotypical. He's a great Jewish doctor. He's the best. You found a catch. He comes from a great family. Well, a lot of people who are abusive actually present really well publicly. So it's a fine line. Like you can, of course, talk to your kids about how great their relationship is and how wonderful this person is. But you can also say, 
But if anything's ever off, you know, you can come to me. Right. And that is so important. Like we and same like with your friends, not just parents, but like talking to your friends and being open about like, oh, he seems really awesome. Like, how is he, you know, when you guys are alone, whatever that might look like. Thank you. So let's let's talk about communication. Carson, if there's one variable that really goes up and down and sideways, it's. Communication. And it can be affected by a variety of different things. Geez, I had a lousy day at work. You might not communicate that, but that's what happened. And then when you come home, you feel lousy and, you know, talk and whatever. There are things, you know, lifestyle changes. Like, you know, you said you deal mostly with younger people, you know, 20s and 30s. 
But people go through lifestyle changes as well, and they have a tendency to put things, I'll put things in quotes here, in the back of their head. I can't deal with it now. I get it. Somebody's yelling and screaming and everything. I can't deal with it now. I'll put it in the back of my head. And a lot of those things for a lot of people... are in the back of their head. And then, you know, you go through a lifestyle change and then all of a sudden, boom, they start coming forward. Okay. So this suppression of your feelings and the suppression can come through, you know, your lack of communication or what have you. So my question centers around communication, lifestyle changes, et cetera. Like for instance, a younger couple, all of a sudden now they have a kid. Well, excuse me. I was just going to say. That's a major lifestyle change. Okay. So respond to all of that, I guess. Yeah. It's so funny because that's what I was thinking is I mentioned to Stanton before we started, I have a nine month old at home and for sure Stanton, 
this is the most challenging time of my relationship ever, right? Like shifting priorities, thinking about how you respond to your baby and your partner and all of those things. I mean, it is really, it is so interesting to go through a lifestyle change like that and then to be doing this work. I love our communication section in seven circles because it helps people. What we talk about is four types of, communication styles, and we help you explore and think about on your own which style you are naturally, and then which style your partner is naturally. You have this conversation about it and what that means. Like if you're a passive communicator and your partner is a passive aggressive communicator, that's challenging, but it's great to acknowledge that. And we talk about the idea that assertive communication is the communication style we should always be reaching for. 
So this idea that we're allowing space for our partner or our colleague or whoever it is to share their feelings, share their perspective. We allow space for that while giving ourselves space to also share our perspective, our feeling, whatever it is. Right. So it's that wonderful balance. Now, the section of that seven circles content. acknowledges that you are not always going to be assertively communicating, but here you have now had this conversation and you can think about often in the beginning as you practice assertive communication and you forget about assertive communication when you're in a heated argument with your partner, let's say, you can go back and think about what repair looks like. Once you get in a fight with your partner, you don't communicate well, you go to your own space, you come back and you say, 
you know, I was thinking about a sort of communication and I could have done better. And you open that door to, to have a conversation about what could have gone better because you're right. Like nobody is perfect. We are going to have bad communication days for whatever reason. It's about how we come back together and how we reconnect afterwards and try to do better next time. So, you know, there's that, you know, we're talking about, you know, I would call it almost relationship training, you know, When you really get down to it. And some relationships aren't meant to be. Yeah. Right? I mean, it's just like, or relationships change. Yeah. Okay, for whatever reason. So the question is, is when a let's just say it's a couple, is working in a program like yours, does there have to be a mutual desire? 
to try to make things better. That's interesting. Some people want to change and some people don't want to change. And what are you going to do if the, you know, one does and one doesn't and whatever. Right. And that's like, I mean, what you just said, I think is what becomes really hard for people. Like, I think this is something society talks about a lot is like, I want to change this person. I want to fix this person. I want them to be better. They say they've be better. Now that might happen in an unhealthy relationship, but PS, that's a lot of what's happening in abusive relationships. When we talk about the cycle of violence, there's an incident of abuse, physical or otherwise, but it's abusive. And then that partner immediately says, I want to do better. I need you to help me be better. But in reality, you put that person in danger and that's not okay. Right. So, you know, that's the abusive side, but this is certainly something that happens in 
in a healthy relationship and an unhealthy relationship, depending on what's going on. Um, I think that, and I should say like, I am not a therapist, but I love therapy. Therapy is awesome. Um, we created seven circles because we know a lot of people are not into therapy and here's a like non-therapeutic way to start these conversations. But I also know couples who started seven circles and then realized, maybe we do need therapy or maybe I need therapy individually, or we, we need to do it as couples or both, which is a great outcome of the program. But I think that I do personally as not a therapist think that if one person is willing to, you know, explore who they are and how they can be a better partner in the relationship and the other partner, isn't willing to do that, that that's tough to reconcile for sure. It's certainly. Is it, is it, 
you're dealing with toxic relationships, is it better to work together or is it better to, I guess, first work individually to kind of get each of your acts together and then come together or both at the same time? I guess I don't know. Yeah, well... It depends what type of toxic relationship we're talking about, right? Like I said, toxic relationship is like a broad term that can mean a lot of things. Toxic could be both couple, you know, both partners going back and forth a lot in an unhealthy way. And then, yeah, like maybe it's all of those things at once, right? You go do your own therapy and you have couples counseling or whatever that might look like. One thing we really warn against in abusive situations is to not do couples counseling, right? 
Because couples counseling is another way in which someone can assert power and control over their partner. Because a lot of times people who are abusive present so well, they get in a room with the therapist and say, their partner, and then they completely charm the pants off of that therapist. And meanwhile, the other partner is too scared to say anything about the reality of what's going on and they leave feeling terrible or they do say something and then there's consequences afterwards. Right. So we really warn against couples counseling. Um, if somebody maybe isn't sure what type of relationship they're in and they think it might be abusive, but they're not sure, start with individual therapy. Um, But if you're in something that doesn't feel good, therapy is awesome. And both of you working together, like what a great sign to want to, you know, to want to go to therapy together. This is also great when you're not in a bad place. Right. As you're talking, first of all, I thank you for that Disney analogy. I thought that was phenomenal. But a lot of times in our world, we hear people make this, and I want you to comment on this. We hear people say like, 
You complete me. You know, I'm complete with you. How much do you think that statement sets up people for problems? Because I think for me, for me, for me, okay, I'm just saying for me. Yeah. I was complete. I'm a complete person even before I married my wife. And so when people talk about, well, you know, she's your better half, you know, like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, you know. But I'm thinking about how our language sometimes sets up our expectations for how relationships should be. And so to maintain that image, we allow certain things to happen. So those are just comments that I just wanted to just throw out there. What are your thoughts? Yeah. I think you're absolutely right, Clarence. I mean, there is so again, it goes back to this idea that like we can consume media. But we have to have a critical lens when we're consuming media, when we're watching these movies and hearing these statements, because it's not reality. And a lot of these abusive relationships, love bombing is this term that's really common now, too. 
early in a relationship where somebody seems so wonderful and they're showering you with gifts and they say, I love you a little soon. And it's like, Oh, I've seen that in the movies. Somebody says, I love you after the first date, but it felt a little weird when they did it now, but I guess it's okay. Cause I saw it in the movies and they ended so magically, um, you know, though it's that gut feeling that's not going to feel good maybe in, in real life. And acknowledging that sometimes it might feel good in real life. Knowing that everybody is different and every relationship is different and it's about how it feels to you. But also having interesting conversations with your friends after you go to the movies and see something like that. Or again, with your kids. Acknowledging that that stuff is often not reality and might not feel good to you. I think it's so important. And I do think we've... 
I feel like we're too deep in it now. Like, it's just the way society is to say, you know, this person's my better half and all these things. But we're starting, we can start to bring more of a critical lens to those conversations now. I appreciate that. Thank you. Let's talk about stressors for just a second. It's like, you know, life presents you with stressors. So all of a sudden you get really sick. Mm-hmm. really sick and that can bring out some stuff in a relationship or I'll just talk like the wars that are going on around the world you can get in conversations with other people like you and your significant other And you realize that, whoa, they're coming at it from a different angle than we are. Then you go out and you talk about it on your own and you realize, wait a minute, we're not necessarily on the same page on some of these things as well. So there's societal stressors, there's physical stressors, and these come and go all the time. 
So how is it that healthy relationships deal with these stressors and unhealthy ones deal with them? So I actually, I think there's this beautiful, I think it was Esther Perel, who I love, where I saw a quote from her about this idea that it's actually a really healthy sign when you and your partner don't agree on everything, because that means you're you are both allowed to have your own space, your own freedom of thought. You feel comfortable sharing your freedom of thought and the things that you disagree on. So it's actually a really beautiful thing. What's not beautiful is when you disagree and you feel, I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot, but you feel unsafe and you feel like you can't share those opinions because you're afraid of how your partner is going to respond. Those are the pieces that are not OK. 
But disagreeing happens all the time. If there is that core in your relationship, to Clarence's point earlier, of respect, of care for one another, of love for one another, all of those kind of core values in your relationship, then it's OK to disagree. My husband and I disagree all the time. And it's OK to do that. We come from different places, different backgrounds. We have different experiences growing up. we can disagree on things and have really thoughtful conversations around that. And sometimes we start a conversation, we say, we're done. We're not going to talk about this topic anymore because it's too heated. And that's okay too. It just means that we have the space to do that. Um, but you know, to, to your point earlier, uh, earlier in that question, Stanton, one of my favorite programs to do is conflict around the holidays 
Like we know that the holidays can be a stressful time. And for couples, especially young couples who are like navigating, merging their lives together in a lot of ways, who are you spending Thanksgiving with? Who are you seeing more? Like all of these questions that you have to navigate, especially as a new couple can bring up conflict. So that's why, not to plug my own program again, but Seven Circles is a great program because it's for couples who are in a good place. It's for couples who are, you know, in a healthy relationship, thinking about their future, and they can have these conversations together in a non, like in a not stressful way before the stress comes, hopefully. And they can build those skills early on. I think that's phenomenal that you have a program like that, where you're looking at a couple before the storm. Yeah, exactly. Because we know that the storm is going to come in a relationship at some point. So for them to have the opportunity to be able to enter that 
into that place and to prepare themselves for it. And, you know, we need more programs like yours. So I have just how you describe it. We need more programs who will do preventative things for things that we know are going to happen. It's almost like you buy an umbrella because you know it's going to rain one day. And we do see it as prevention education. Like there is this component to this also, you know, In speaking with our clinicians while we were building the program, I was really concerned about making the program. It's a self-guided program. So the couples do it on their own time. So this idea that like if you're in an abusive relationship and you're doing the program, how do we make sure that person is as safe as possible? But what really came out in speaking with clinicians and some of our clients as well was. 
My partner who was abusive would never want to do this program because they think they're the best thing that ever walked the earth. So why would they do a program about relationships? They do relationships well. So that wasn't necessarily the piece to prevention of this program. But the idea that you can have a friend group of five people, you're all in a relationship, you're all doing the program except for one person who everybody was always a little concerned about that person. And they don't want to do the program. Well, why don't they want to do it? It opens up a conversation. It opens up this like... Why do you think Susie doesn't want to do this program with you? What do you think is going on there that the friends can have and maybe open up about the relationship more? On top of which, the more we're talking about healthy relationships, lifting them up, the more we know what's okay and what's not. Maddie, you have a comment. Yeah, I just had a follow-up question, Jordan, to something you said a few minutes ago when you were talking about conflict. And you said sometimes you and your husband will, 
be talking about something and you're like, we need to just stop this conversation because it's too heated. I want to get your thoughts about like, you know, is that a conversation you come back to? Or is that a conversation that's just kind of like off limits? And what is like the balance between like, you know, you don't want every topic of conversation to be off limits in a relationship. So what's the balance between like, you know, revisiting something and then also just like, this is something that we just don't talk about ever because it's, too heated or too emotional or whatever it is? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question, Maddie. It depends what the topic is, right? Like, you might be in conflict about how you're raising your kids, and you might be in conflict about some pop culture thing that you don't have to talk about, right? So there are different levels. 
But there are ways to set up a healthier way to have the conversation. I think setting boundaries with your partner when you're not in conflict is really important. So if you grew up in a household that was maybe toxic and your parents were always slamming doors, you can say to your partner, look, if we fight with each other and we walk away, just please don't slam a door in my face because that's really upsetting to me because of how I grew up. And I care about you and I know you care about me. That's my red line. Set up those boundaries beforehand. If you find that you're in a heated discussion and you want to go back to that conversation, put a pause on it and come to some agreement about the calmest time that you can come back together and have that discussion. 
with those boundaries in place that you've set up, right? Say, you know what? We were running out the door and we had this conflict and then we had an annoying workday. We know Sunday afternoons, we're pretty chill. We're at home, we're doing nothing. Let's have lunch on Sunday and let's like really talk about this in a calm way. So you can set up some parameters for you and your partner to have these discussions and you can figure those things out before you're in conflict or you can figure it out after you have conflict and you're like really struggling to get back to the conversation. You know, it's so funny. You brought back a memory for me. The biggest conversation or the first conflictual conversation I ever had with my wife was around football. She worked for a professional team. And after church, we would be driving home, and she had to listen to the football game. And I remember that was one conversation that just ticked me off because I didn't like football. 
And so I wish I'd had this work before then because then I wouldn't have been so non-talkative for a week or so. Because it was such a simple thing. I could have just said, let's turn the football game off or why don't we drive different cars or something like that. But I think knowing that there are some ways to prep for those things that will come up. And like you just said, it seems such a simple thing. But for me, it's like, I don't want to hear nothing about the football. But anyway, I'm just, again, thankful for the opportunity to listen and to hear that there are programs out there that will, before you're in conflict, before you have problems, that you can have some tools prepared and ready for you to help to minimize conflict that is going to come. 
And it is going to come. And I think the other thing, like I, my favorite section of our program is around healthy conflict because just having that section in and of itself acknowledges that you are going to be in conflict because I think something else that society really pushes is like what a perfect relationship is. And I think social media pushes that. I think, you know, narratives and movies and TV push that there are, to what we kind of keep coming back to, there are ups and downs. And that is okay. That is inevitable. But it's how you deal with those ups and downs and knowing that you are not going to be perfect every time. But how you come back to each other is what's so important um is is really important to talk about and acknowledge, you know, as a society on a large scale and then on the macro level in your relationship. Let me talk about angst. So, um 
And let me talk about it with young families. Okay. So I can see for young parents, you know, Jordan, I can use you as an example. It's like you can be pulled. Okay. And I recognize the pull. On one hand, you want your kids, your family to know their grandparents. Okay. You want that. On the other hand, you're getting pulled from one set of grandparents over here and you're getting pulled from another set of grandparents over here. And you have to try to create the balance. And that creates stress. It creates some perhaps negative conversations between you and your husband, you know, on how to do this or how to balance this or whatever. guidance, prevention, might there be, maybe even the program that you work with, to help young families deal with something like that. And God knows there's probably a million other angsts as well. Right. I have to be careful because my in-laws live in St. Paul. Maybe they listen. Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, I think that's an example of something that, 
you're always individually, whether you have kids or not, whatever the topic is, maybe it's aging parents, maybe it's, you know, you have a sibling with a disability or you have kids, whatever it is, we are always going to be growing and evolving and changing as individuals and in our relationship. And I think this acknowledgement to this idea of bringing flexibility into your relationship, if you make one decision today, it doesn't mean that you can't pivot and make changes immediately. tomorrow, right? And so being able to continue to communicate with your partner, here's where we're at today. Let's keep talking about this and see how it's going tomorrow and the next day. And the reality is some of these decisions, there's not a compromise. It's you're doing A or you're doing B for Thanksgiving. But you can talk about next year. You can talk about, you know what? We're going to host Thanksgiving every year. And whoever wants to come can come. There are some ways to... 
to find compromise, even when it might feel like there's only an A and B decision. But I think that flexibility is so key, that flexibility and that acknowledgement that sometimes life is just going to be harder and you're going to reprioritize a little bit for a short period of time. But you think about when you can come back to each other. You think about when you can reshuffle and reprioritize. The first three months of having a baby is insane. You can't prioritize your relationship for a lot of people, right? That's okay. But then once you settle in, you can come back and think about ways to reconnect and think about, you know, this new life you have together in a positive and exciting way while you're still sleep deprived. Not speaking for ourselves at all. We all face these things and things come up suddenly, too. I mean, you know, like sickness, I mentioned before. This is, I mean, we could go on and on about this. 
about this because life has its ups and downs and sideways. For me, the takeaway, and I'll have everybody do their takeaways here. For me, the takeaway is don't feel that you're alone. If you truly feel as though something hurts or something is off, don't be shy. Get help. To your point, Jordan, was the idea that therapists in many ways are miracle workers in the sense that they provide an objective set of glasses that help you think through things. And don't shy away from getting that kind of assistance. We deal with our physical ailments. We have to balance that very, very judiciously with our mental ailments. as well. Your takeaway, Jordan. Yeah. I mean, I have four takeaways from what you even just said. I do, you know, I think trusting your gut is so important about your own relationship or someone else's. And I just think if you have a question and you're not sure, call somebody who can help you sort through the answer. And I think your idea of you're not alone is so important. 
If you're in an abusive relationship, you're probably isolated, tactfully isolated from your support network, from your friends, from your loved ones. Think of that one person you might want to reach out to, or maybe that one person who's been reaching out to you. Go back to them and talk to them. Or again, call a helpline. These are not scary places to call. These are warm places to call who can help you sort through what a safe and healthy next step might be. And just recognizing, you know, toxic relationships, abusive relationships. If something doesn't feel right, it might not be right. So just trust your gut on that, I think is really important. Maddie. Well, I just in general could listen to Jordan speak about this forever. My boyfriend and I are actually doing the Seven Circles program, our next program. 
our next circle or topic that we are going to do is around healthy conflict. So, um, this has been, you know, very, very relevant to that. Um, so these are things that I'm kind of are always kind of on my mind, especially as we live in a time of social media and in a time of where relationships or a specific image of relationships is always presented to us. Um, And especially, you know, as, like, my friends and I are in kind of, like, different stages of our own relationships and in different relationships from each other. This is, you know, again, just to, like, echo what Jordan said. Like, I think it's just so important for women especially to be, like, talking about what relationships can and do look like with each other. And so, yeah, just thanks, Jordan. You're just so, you know, everything you say is just, like, beautifully put. Awesome. 
And yeah, I think this is a really important conversation for our listeners to hear and for us to be hearing too. So thank you. You know, I think of seven circles as a complicated Venn diagram. When I say, oh my God, seven circles overlapping, you know, you said. Clarence. You know, I have, thank you. Thank you very much. Very, very relevant topic for me. Right now I'm in the process of doing a daddy book. I'm also a fatherhood doula. So I think the whole idea about the seven circles is very important. I'm going to talk to you some more after we get off of this program. But I think that that is a wonderful, relevant conversation that people should have, especially when they're new parents. 
But yeah, I've really thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and it's brought up some really interesting thinking for me. You know, one thing that we did talk about were pets and how pets can help you have almost an onboard trusted relationship that constantly is with you and loves you unconditionally. And you know, that could be another, another, another topic for a show, but they can help. Sam's just obsessed with his dog Murphy. So he likes to bring him. He's a, he's a great, he's, he's sleeping right now. He's not bored. He's just sleeping. Well, I can tell you pets are, one of the barriers for someone to leave their relationship. If someone's thinking about leaving, you know, finding a place where they can go with their pets or if they feel like they can't take their pet, it's a reason to stay and a very relevant one because it is that unconditional love and maybe the only unconditional love they're receiving. So pets are a beautiful part of this whole conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Deandra, any thoughts from you? Yeah, I really... 
Just kind of enjoyed listening to kind of everything you had to say about it, specifically just how youth talk about toxic relationships and just even using the word toxic. I do think it's like right now, very friendly. You know, it's almost, you know, you can go on TikTok and see kids having fun about what their toxic traits are. And it's really just them talking in a very fun, open way. And so it's just interesting to see how that has really changed, whereas maybe years ago that would be seen as kind of like if something was toxic, it was really not good for you, which now we've kind of made it into this thing that is like very much always in the conversation. You know, it's very much used very regularly, I would say. And, you know, whether that's good or bad, it's, you know... 
I think it's, it can go both ways, but I just thought that was really interesting. And just how you put that, that's kind of a more, you know, it's the word kind of tones it down and just how we're using it these days. I love that. Yeah. I mean, the reality is we can, I am not on TikTok, so I didn't know that was a trend, but I think that's kind of awesome. Like if young people are going on TikTok and talking about what's their toxic trait is like there is some value in that, right? Like acknowledging that we can all be better people is important. So hopefully it gets there somehow. I'm sure for some people it does and some people it doesn't on TikTok, but that's so interesting. Yeah. Well, Jordan, thank you so much. Like we say to many of our guests, we reserve the right to give you a call again to be on our show because it's 
inevitably, certainly in this arena, other ideas and subjects come up that link really closely to this idea of toxic relationships. So stay tuned for sure. So thank you. Thank you for being with us. It was really insightful. And good luck with your programming. I think it's really second to none. So thank you. To our listening audience, we have another show coming up on Burials and funerals and the stress and the angst that goes with that. So stay tuned to that. In the meantime, everybody keep health chatting away.