Unintentional Firearm Deaths

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Health Chatter. Today's episode is on unintentional firearm (0:14) deaths for children, unfortunately, between the ages of birth and 17.

We've got two great guests (0:24) with us today. We'll get to them in just a moment. I'd like to thank our great crew.

(0:30) Our research crew includes Maddie Levine-Wolfe, Erin Collins, DeAndre Howard, and Sheridan (0:37) Nygaard. Sheridan also provides us with some great marketing skills, so thank you to all of you. (0:44) Also, I'd like to thank Matthew Campbell, who's our production great assistant, (0:52) who gets these shows out to you, the listening audience, in perfect form, along with some great (0:58) music.

So thank you to Matthew as well. And then, of course, there's Clarence Jones, who's my (1:05) colleague and co-host of the show, who is down in Memphis right now in the airport. So thanks for (1:16) working it out so that you can still be on the show today, Clarence.

It's always great to have (1:21) your voice. Finally, I'd like to thank Human Partnership, who is our sponsor for these shows. (1:29) It's a great community health organization.

We recommend that you check them out at (1:34) humanpartnership.org, along with our website as well, which is healthchatterpodcast.com. (1:46) So today, a sad topic, but yet I'm glad that we're talking about it, because just merely (1:54) talking about it and bringing it to you, the listening audience, will heighten our awareness (1:59) about this topic of unintentional firearm deaths. We have two great guests. I'll introduce one, (2:07) and then I'll let Tom introduce another guest, who's a colleague of his.

I've known Tom Cockey, (2:15), Dr. Tom Cockey, we figured, for close to 40 years. Tom is an absolutely wonderful colleague, (2:24) a true clinical expert in the area of cardiology, but also (2:31) a wonderful colleague in the public health arena. I can't really begin to tell you how many (2:42) arenas Tom has been involved with in the public health arena, and has really been a strong voice (2:50) connecting the public health side of all these different issues that we deal with, (2:56) with the medical aspects.

It's been a pleasure, truly a pleasure, having him as a colleague, (3:03) and we still connect to this day. So Tom, thanks, many thanks for being on our show today. (3:11) Tom, I'll let you introduce Anthony.

Okay, thanks. Thanks, Dan. (3:19) Anthony Butler is a colleague of mine.

We both serve on the Protect Minnesota board, (3:27) Anthony's chair of the C3 board, and Protect Minnesota is the only statewide, exclusively (3:37) Minnesota gun safety, firearm safety advocacy group. We do collaborate with groups like Moms (3:50) Demand Action, Giffords, etc. Anthony was born in Harlem in New York City, and although living (3:59) with both parents, he was always in trouble as an adolescent.

He attended five different high (4:04) schools in the greater NYC area before dropping out at age 17 and getting his GED. Growing up, (4:11) Anthony knew the value of hard work. The day after his eighth grade graduation, he began working in (4:16) McDonald's with his father on the weekends and always held a job throughout high school and beyond.

(4:22) In the summer of 2008, I think he was about 20 at the time, he was the victim of a shooting that (4:28) resulted in his loss of vision. After problems with his family and nowhere else to turn, Anthony (4:33) moved into a homeless shelter. While residing in the shelter, Anthony was introduced to a mentor (4:41) whom he credits with changing the entire trajectory of his life.

He enrolled in the (4:48) New School where he received his Bachelor of Fine Arts before attending New York University and (4:54) obtaining his Master in Social Work in 2016. Since graduating, he's had a number of positions in the (5:01) workforce such as social worker for young men of color at King's County District Attorney's (5:07) Office in Brooklyn. He's been a recovery specialist with Community Access and after leaving (5:16) that program, he relocated here to Minneapolis with his girlfriend where he works as a therapist for (5:22) offenders of sex crimes.

When he's not working, he participates in multi-sport endurance competitions (5:29) which has afforded him the opportunity to travel to over six countries and half the United States. (5:34) As a social worker, Anthony strives to be an advocate for the underserved and help people (5:39) navigate the many hardships one may endure on a daily basis. And as I mentioned, I know Anthony (5:45) because we both sit on the board of Protect Minnesota where he is the current chair.

So, (5:51) thank you very much, Anthony, for joining me on this podcast. (5:56) Thank you, Tom. (5:57) It's great.

Great to have you. And I'm giving you a virtual hug. So, there you go.

(6:07) So, thanks for being on our show today. So, let's talk about this issue of unintentional (6:15) firearm deaths. What I thought I would do is, you know, our illustrious research gang has put (6:20) some statistics together.

And then I thought maybe Tom and Anthony, you can respond to this. (6:28) So, it's a leading cause of death, unintentional injuries, leading cause of death among U.S. (6:34) children and adolescents from, again, from birth to 17 years. And firearms are a leading injury (6:44) method, which is the sad part of all of this.

In 2021, a couple of years ago now, (6:51) approximately 30 million children lived in homes with firearms, 4.6 million in households (6:58) reporting storing firearms loaded and unlocked. In other words, ready to be fired. When we kind (7:11) of break this down a little bit by age and sex and race, a majority of the deaths occurring among (7:19) boys, about 83.1%. And the highest age range is in ages 11 to 15.

Non-Hispanic, Black or African (7:34) American amount to close to 40% of the unintentional deaths. And, you know, I can (7:44) go on. So, let's just start there.

Let's talk about the problem. So, Tom, you want to start us out? (7:52) Yeah, sure. And I personally have been affected when, about 40 years ago, when my daughter was a (7:59) student at J.J. Hill, one of her classmates didn't show up for school that day because a (8:05) three-year-old had found a pistol in the couch.

And you don't have to complete the sentence. You (8:13) know what happened. And then when I was in practice over at Riverside, just around the corner, (8:19) again, somebody, a kid, about three, found a pistol in a wastebasket where it had been, quote, (8:25) secreted, and shot his brother and killed him.

And so, a couple of take-homes. (8:33) There's no such thing as a hidden gun. You may think, if you have a firearm in your home, (8:40) you may think that it's hidden from your kids, but it's more likely to be hidden from you because (8:47) you've forgotten about it than your kids.

Your kids know everything. I mean, if they can find (8:52) Christmas presents, they know where the guns are. And because 50 percent of homes have a firearm in (8:59) them, when your kids go over to play, there's a fair chance that there's an unlocked, loaded (9:09) firearm in that house.

And so, my suggestion is, before a play date, you call, you know, (9:14) you're setting up a play date. Your Timmy is going to go play over at Johnny's, so you call Johnny's (9:19) mom and say, are the firearms in your home locked and unloaded with ammo, also locked and stored (9:25) separately? Okay. So, Johnny's mom says, well, we don't have firearms.

I say, great, perfect. (9:34) She says, yeah, they're all locked and put away. So, you say, I'm really glad about that.

And (9:42) she says, no, we have one in the bedside table for protection. I say, well, maybe let's have (9:48) Johnny come over here. I'm very uncomfortable with having my child in a home where there's an (9:55) unlocked firearm.

Okay. Now, some people say, well, they can't afford a biometric safe. Well, (10:08) I just looked online.

You can buy a biometric safe for 70 bucks. And so, that's, what is that, 10 (10:14) cups of coffee at Starbucks? You know, if you can afford a pistol, you can afford a biometric safe. (10:21) And I'm going to stop there for a moment and turn it over to Anthony for his reflections, (10:29) and we can turn back for some other ideas I have about increasing the safety of your children in a (10:40) gun culture, which is the United States.

(10:43) Anthony? (10:44) Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, you make very good points. I mean, speaking to you the other day, (10:49) when you brought that up about going to people's houses, it made me think, and I asked my wife, (10:53) we have to make sure we ask some of these questions.

Coming up, I never even thought (10:58) about these things. So, that's why I'm happy I get to speak to people like you about topics (11:02) like these, because it helps me expand on some of the things that I may have never thought of. (11:07) But getting back to you, and this is why organizations like Protect Minnesota or the (11:12) advocacy groups are important to help with resources like this, because although one (11:18) may think $70 is cheap, I don't know how many households could actually afford to (11:25) buy $70, or how much disposable income does a person have every week to where they could (11:31) get a biometric safe, right? Because some people may not even get their guns legally, (11:37) so even though they think if you can afford a pistol, you can afford a safe, but how did (11:43) they even get their gun? Did they just get it from some kind of bartering system, like traded (11:48) drugs for a gun, trade a little bit of marijuana or some other kind of drug for a gun or some (11:54) other service for a gun? So, that's the question, too, because some of these guns aren't even (11:58) legal.

And then we have to ask ourselves, too, like, yeah, we want to ask somebody else about (12:04) if they have guns at their house, but we don't even know if their gun is legal. So, would they (12:08) even tell us if they have guns in their houses? So, that's another barrier to keeping our children (12:14) safe, too, right? So, it's about how can we really trust one another and have open dialogues about (12:20) guns? Because imagine trying to talk to people about guns. We're afraid to even ask other people (12:26) about talking about money and finances.

So, talking about guns, that could be really hard in certain (12:32) households, especially like urban households. So, yeah. (12:36) So, Tom, let me, you bring up an interesting scenario.

So, let's just take a parent who's (12:45) got a young kid and their young child is going to go, wants to go play with a friend. (12:53) Have we gotten to the point where parents need to ask the other parent if you have a gun? (13:02) In the house? Is it stored properly? I mean, do we, are we at that point? Or do we just go (13:12) with trust, I guess? So, what's your sense on that? Where are we in the prevention arena, (13:18) the safety arena? Well, the data are clear. We're there.

(13:23) We're there. Now, Anthony brought up an excellent point. Of course, (13:28) you know, I come from a white middle-class background where, you know, right, you know, (13:33) for decades, $70 has been not very much to me.

But firearm locks free. If you live in St. Paul, (13:42) you can get a free firearm lock from the St. Paul Police Department or in Ramsey County. (13:49) They also have the Gun Safety Initiative website.

And then Minnesota, Minnesota Department of Safety (13:57) will also provide them. And we're working with doctor's offices to, you know, basically have a (14:03) bowl of gun locks, trigger locks, out on the desk next to the bowl of condoms. And we just pick them (14:11) up.

But Anthony is absolutely right that it may have been barter or that I shouldn't assume that (14:19) $70, particularly in this economy, is sort of optional money. (14:27) Are we seeing this in other states as well? That, you know, gun locks are being made available? (14:34) Are you aware of other states? Yep. California, Colorado, even down in Louisiana, (14:41) they have campaigns, the docs have campaigns to offer gun locks.

(14:46) Great. Clarence? Yeah, well, Dr. Cockey, I just want to tell you this. I think we're at the point (14:52) where as a parent, you got to ask your kids questions.

You also ask those other parents (14:57) questions because it's not only just guns, it's also substance abuse. It's also other kinds of (15:03) things that are going on in homes. And so are we at that place where we have to be as parents more (15:07) protective? The answer is totally yes, because we're starting to see these things.

I was also (15:13) going to say that, you know, while this is being done in Minnesota, we recently had a series of (15:22) young people who were killed or hurt by guns in homes. And so we have to have this conversation. (15:28) And so, you know, we're at different places, but at the same time, it is an important (15:34) issue that's impacting all of us.

And so I'm just glad that we're able to enter into the conversation (15:40) regardless of our lane. Yeah. Anthony? (15:46) No, I agree.

And I agree that we're there with the conversation. I remember a few weeks ago, (15:51) I mean, my daughter just turned two, you know, but a few weeks ago we were at another couple's house (15:56) and they were both in the army, you know, and she just mentioned out loud, like the woman whose (16:02) house we went to just mentioned out loud, like, oh, all my husband does on the weekends is go (16:06) shooting and then come back home, you know? And automatically I thought like, oh, I don't, (16:11) that was a trigger for me, you know? So when we left, I'm talking to my wife, like, (16:16) I don't know if we can remain friends with them, because I don't know if, I don't know if I want (16:20) to have a conversation with them about their gun storage. I don't even know how to have that (16:24) conversation, you know? So I would also like to think, and I'll hear from you guys about like, (16:29) how do we even engage in that conversation? No matter what race they are, like, (16:33) how do I engage in that conversation with someone else about like? (16:40) Yeah, that's a great question, Anthony.

And what we're learning from the docs is that you don't (16:44) ask, do you have guns? You start out by asking, are your guns stored safely? And so that gets (16:52) around the second amendment thing or the, you know, like, why are you asking me if I have guns? (16:58) It's, are you going to start safely? And I think, you know, folks in the military, (17:07) or ex-military may, I mean, they've had some training. And I'm going to offer something. (17:16) I think that I, well, I had gun safety training when I was in Boy Scouts.

And also we used to (17:25) hunt with a classmate of my father's who had been in the military in World War II. And he was a (17:33) stickler for safety. And I think, like, I was talking to one of the chaps who was in the St. (17:39) Paul violence interrupters.

He said, the way I learned, you know, how to shoot a gun was on (17:45) Nintendo. So there's, there's no real, the reality of what happens when somebody's struck (17:55) by a bullet is not known. So I would suggest sending as your child, if they're not in Boy (18:02) Scouts or, you know, sending them to a gun safety program.

Now Outstate, the Department of Natural (18:12) Resources hosts these. Here in the Twin Cities, there's a chap, he operates a company called (18:21) Protection Far Left of Center. And I haven't been there, but if you look at his website, (18:27) what he talks about is very realistic.

He's not a, you know, a carry and kill guy, but he's, he's (18:34) teaches respect for guns. The other, the other opportunity, if you want, is have your child (18:40) participate in the Minnesota Clay Target Association. I mean, you know, competitive (18:46) trap shooting.

And because their first, their first order is safety and respecting what you, (18:55) you know, what that firearm can do. Yeah. And I'm sure that there are analogous groups, you know, in (19:06) across the country, at least I hope, you know, let me, let me ask this question.

You know, (19:11) it's like I grew up, I'm sure most of us did with squirt guns. Okay. Or just any play type of guns.

(19:23) Have we also gotten to the point from a prevention standpoint that that should be taboo with kids (19:29) growing up? Absolutely. I would absolutely not buy a kid a replica gun. Now, you know, like a, (19:39) like a, you know, one that shoots ping pong balls.

Fine. You know, nobody's going to mistake (19:44) that. But a replica gun can get your child killed because they pull it out.

And it happened in, (19:51) I think Cincinnati, Cleveland or Cincinnati kids on a swing has a replica gun. The sheriff (19:57) or police officer comes roaring up, says, drop it in three seconds, you know, three seconds later, (20:05) or 10 seconds later, fills them full of lead. Yeah.

You know, and so I think, you know, and, (20:13) and that's the other thing. I would not carry myself personally a gun because you read the (20:20) newspaper and all the dumb things people do with their guns in the heat of the moment. (20:25) Anthony, do you have an opinion about that? (20:28) I got, let me, let me say this real quick.

I, when I was growing up, my father would not let me (20:33) have a gun that, that, that was just, it was just not, not something that he would do. I don't know (20:38) what his reasonings for it was, but that's happened. But I think you made a good point.

(20:42) We have become so desensitized with killing now with Nintendo and these other, these other games (20:48) that people think that, you know, when you, you know, when you're doing this, (20:52) they don't realize the impact of a game versus a real, a real (21:00) instrument. That person, if you shoot them, they're not going to get back up again. On that game, (21:05) they will.

So you kind of like, well, if I shoot them, you know, they'll jump back up. (21:09) That's not happening. I can just shoot them in the leg and that, you know, and, and I think that (21:12) there's a, there is, as you just said, there's a desensitizing that we've done that we need to (21:18) really have some conversations about.

And the reality is this, the other thing I want to make (21:23) real quick is that a lot of people don't want to bring up topics because they don't want to (21:30) lose their friends. You know, you know, they're just certain, you know, everybody's so sensitive (21:35) and politically correct and, you know, so you can't really talk about a lot of things. (21:40) But yet those things that, that you don't talk about are the things that's hurting you and (21:44) your family or could potentially hurt you and your family.

And so you would rather (21:49) risk saving a relationship versus sometimes saving your own family. And I mean, so that's (21:55) what health chat is about. I know I'm on the limb here, but that's how I feel.

(22:00) Yeah. You know, Anthony, I've got a question for you. You know, you obviously went through (22:07) an unfortunate event where you were, you were shot and you lost your eyesight.

Have you ever (22:16) reflected upon the idea of, okay, I'm involved in this subject because what has happened to me? (22:27) Okay. On the other hand, have you ever thought about, would you have gotten involved in it? (22:35) If some, if an event has not happened to you from a prevention standpoint? (22:43) Um, that's a great question. I think, um, you know, I think growing up, I couldn't see past (22:49) a certain point, right? Like not, not, not in a literal sense, but like, I couldn't think I was, (22:55) I couldn't think to when I was 21, you know what I mean? I was 21 years old.

I was 20 years old. (23:00) I got shot three months before my 21st birthday, you know? So growing up, I knew, I knew one day (23:05) I would get shot. I knew there was a high chance of me getting shot.

I remember even after me (23:10) getting shot, I went to like my old neighborhood one day and it was five of us just hanging out. (23:14) And the common thing that all of us had with one another was all of us got shot within a one block (23:21) radius of where we were standing that day. Wow.

Wow. You know what I mean? I don't know if a lot (23:25) of people can even say that, you know what I mean? Right, right. But people like us get together in (23:31) it's, it's primarily because of trauma, right? Somebody dying.

And, you know, a lot of times (23:36) that's because one of our friends is getting murdered, right? Or something else that affects (23:40) like, you know, some kind of way. So to answer your question, I can't say, I can't say no. I (23:46) can't say yes.

I know at that time I was starting to like want to go to school and like, you know, (23:53) get out of the streets and make better of myself. I don't know what that would have, (23:57) what that would have looked like, you know, um, at that age, probably not, but you know, (24:01) who knows when I was 40 or 50, would I have wanted to start doing acts of service and giving back in (24:05) some sort of way? I would, I would like to hope I can say yes, but I can't even honestly say yes, (24:11) because that's how it was just self-preservation, right? It's self-preservation by any means, (24:15) you know, whether that's carrying a gun, whether that's something, whatever it is, (24:19) I have to get my next meal. That's, that's how I was wired, you know? So I can't say, (24:24) I can't say yes with confidence.

Yeah. Um, and you know, Tom, I'm sure we can, (24:30) we can reflect on this, that, um, you know, many of the public, the major public health, um, (24:37) problems that, that we're facing, it's, it's not unusual that people get involved with them (24:45) based on, um, experience that they've had one way or the other. And, um, you know, like for (24:52) instance, I think of you, Tom, you know, in the cardiology field and, um, your work many years (24:58) ago, uh, on smoke-free and, and you, you understood the connection between, um, you know, cardiac (25:06) events and, and smoking.

So I guess, you know, it's not unusual that people get involved based on (25:14) being involved in an event or what have you. Does that seem reasonable to you as well? (25:21) Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Makes things salient to people. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. So let, (25:27) let's talk about, okay.

What is it really? What is it that, um, brings the issue of unintentional (25:38) firearm deaths to a heightened level? For instance, in the African American community, (25:45) what is it? What, what, why are they like X number of percentage points (25:52) above the other groups of people? Is there any, any thought on that? (25:58) I think, I think, Stan, this is glaring. I think that part of what we have to acknowledge is (26:05) that there are systemic things that are happening in this country. There's a systemic pressure (26:10) that are being applied to certain groups of people.

There are certain kinds of unrealistic (26:14) expectations that are placed on people and people are, you know, somebody using the term traumatized (26:20) and I try not to get too far into that, that, that lane, but, but that's true. That's reality (26:26) people underneath the pressure. And so we live in a, when I was growing up, we lived in a John (26:31) Wayne kind of society too, where if you're going to handle your problems, you know, you beat them (26:35) up or you shoot them or whatever that kind of thing.

I mean, so you can develop a certain (26:39) kind of, whether it's a kind of unknown or it's kind of suppressed feeling about certain (26:48) kinds of things. And that's how you handle, how you handle your problems. And so I think that part (26:54) of what's happening is that based on what you see on TV, based on how people present things, based (27:01) on, you know, the rap, based on the, you know, the, the, the, the media, I mean, there is a certain (27:06) kind of image that's placed on people so that they fortunately their, their life is, is imitating (27:19) art.

It's not that art imitates life. You know what I mean? And so now they- (27:25) I kind of think of it as a, you know, I hope that other population groups do not get a false sense (27:31) of security. In other words, or safety.

In other words, you know, if my kids are white, okay, well, (27:40) not a problem. They're safe. (27:42) But think about that, Sam.

Think about that. Think about that, what you just said. (27:45) Or safer.

(27:46) Yeah, no, no, no, no. Think about what you just said. It, it, isn't it sad that, that we know (27:51) that there are certain pressures applied to certain groups that may not necessarily be applied to other (27:55) groups, you know, and the hope is that we don't let our group become affected by that group.

And (28:03) that's sad because all of us should have a sense of safety. All of us should have a sense of (28:07) protection, but that's not true in this country, you know? And so I think that those are the kinds (28:13) of things that we have to be honest about as we start talking about this issue of why do we have (28:18) so many unlocked guns? Why do we have so many guns? You know, why do, why are our children impacted (28:24) by this? What, what do we as parents say about, about these issues? And then how do we, how do we (28:30) effectively message so that other people can, can take more safety measures, you know, to address (28:37) the issue? (28:39) Can I, can I, can I say something? (28:40) Yeah, absolutely. (28:42) I think our society has not been taught to, to really appreciate and embrace what prevention is.

(28:52) As a society, right, the medicine is always in the candy, right? We don't treat people before (28:57) they get sick, you know? We treat people when they are sick, right? So what we have to really (29:04) like come to a universal kind of understanding of what is safety, you know? Because in my, (29:10) in my household or growing up, or probably like for lack of a better term, anyone, right? Is like, (29:16) you know, if, if I put my gun up in the closet behind this shoe box, it's safe because my kid (29:22) can't reach it. But they don't think about, oh, would that kid get a step stool and get curious (29:26) because they just want to see what's up there. They don't think about that, right? And we're not (29:30) taught to think like that as a society.

We're taught to think about things when it actually (29:36) happens. So like me growing up in the inner city, you know what I mean? I had, we had metal (29:41) detectors going to my school all the way down to our bottom. We had to take our shoes off.

(29:46) We had to clap our boots and we had to walk through the metal detectors every single morning. So we (29:50) had to get to school like an hour, a half an hour early to walk through metal detectors in order (29:55) for us to get to class on time. Yeah.

So when these school shootings happened,

Tom, you've been involved in the prevention arena, I mean for a many, many public health issues. So reflect on what Anthony just said. You know, it's like. You know, you and I know prevention is is a tough is a tough game, it really is. And I've often said that prevention isn't as sexy as as intervention. Okay, and and so what's your sense while these years?

tom kottke [he,his]: Yeah, I mean, Anthony is absolutely right. And one of the problems is that the Nra is funded by the gun manufacturers. The firearm manufacturers has convinced the American public that they're safer with a gun than without one it, and that's only that's only about the last 20 years, but it is now true, and during COVID I mean Covid was great for gun sales and you know, a, A, a pistol for the average American is really, it's more a talisman than a safety device because they they believe that the data are clear. You have a you have a firearm in your household, your the life expectancy of everyone who lives in that household is shorter than if you did not have you know it. It may be like a case. And when I lived in Rochester, where the granddaughter came home late despite the fact that, the grandparent said, oh, if somebody tries to break in, we're gonna lock ourselves in the bedroom and call the police. They did. They fired through the back door hitting their granddaughter in the stomach. She lived, but may have ended up with a Colostomy for the rest of her life. I think one of the you know we know that volunteerism, being a volunteer, improves

happiness, Well being, and I think, for people have the time to to to mentor young men in particular to give them both, like Anthony talked about his mentor that changed his life. Mentoring changed having mentors for me, changed my life, and and teaching identifying for young men what they want to do, giving them opportunity, and then also helping them think through. What? What does a fire carrying do for me? Because in many of our sub cultures in the States, it's  you have to carry. And like they talked about it's really an urban arms race, you know. Okay, the other guys got a bump stock. I need a bump stock and that kind of stuff. They got a high, you know, high capacity magazine. I need a high capacity magazine, and it doesn't make anybody safer. It makes everybody unsafer. But it's it's teaching, and it's teaching within the relevance, within the context and by somebody who is respected by that individual. I think it's creating opportunity. But you're right. It's it's absolutely a challenge. Because Americans you know, I and as a result of advertising Dubai sponsored by the gun gun industry, and through the Nra and others. I have come to believe that having a pistol having a firearm is makes them safer, and they have this image that all just. I'll just shoot him. But you have to, you know. Say II have a friend who's he carries a pistol on his car, because he says, well, maybe maybe I get in a road rage. Well, boy, you get that pistol out, you better be prepared to shoot, because if the other guy has a pistol he's going to shoot you. and so you have to shoot first. But what if? What if they're what you think is a pistol as a cell phone. you know. Can you shoot him? You're you're in deep doo doo, or like in Rochester last couple of years a a High school coach got in a fender bender with some Somali kids and shot and killed one of them. Not a good scenario for that chat. He's gonna spend some time reflecting on that with limited freedom and you know, even if you shoot somebody by accident, or you know, are you prepared to do that? And so this whole idea of thinking through. You know. What? What. what are the next 5 steps that are going to happen? If if I shoot somebody good a lot of time you're gonna spend some time in Oak Park Heights. 

So, Tom, what about the idea of Something, you know. I'm just trying to think creatively here, as far as prevention is concerned  community conversations around safety. Frankly, maybe in general. that you know. So in other words, it wouldn't be just focused on on gun safety, which might just keep people away just by the mere title but safety overall. And then within that conversation you included. Gun safety is is, is one example of of things that we should be doing to make all of us safer. Does that? Is that even feasible?

tom kottke [he,his]: I think so. Certainly probably traffic safety, you know, in terms of community burden. Yeah, traffic safety. Talk about safety is jogging at night or walking at night. Every morning I read about somebody who's been killed while walking on a road, and my wife and I will walk. Our dogs and people are. They're out jogging and black walking, but you can't see them, you know, and this whole belief that if they, if I can see them they can see me. Yeah, I'd wrong. You're gonna be dead because you're wrong, you know. But yeah, I think I think you know. And we we need to practice those conversations about you know that it's okay to ask about, you know, are your firearms locked up it, just, you know, assuming, you know. And then, if they say, well, we don't have them, that's you know. I'm glad, you know. Then, being prepared to do something. But yeah, we we having those conversations. I don't know if they'd

Stanton Shanedling:, Anthony, what do you think about that community conversations around? a generalized topic of safety that would include gun safety, so that people wouldn't necessarily be you know, turned off by the subject that just gun safety. But just generalize safety.

Anthony Butler: It's you know, II think it's hard in certain areas. And I think why, I could perceive it being hard and like my community is because we're impacted by gun violence so much that it may be perceived as now. You're just teaching my kid how to use a gun like I don't wanna you know what I mean, and and that and that's the disconnect I think it really takes for people who could really identify right with these intersecting identities that could really come in here and and really speak to people about. Hey, we need to if we some people are gonna do it. Anyway. You know, I used to always say this to like my mom, you know. When I was growing up I used to. I used to smoke. We used to smoke marijuana a lot, you know. So a lot of times when I got arrested is because of smoking weed, you know. But I always told my mom. Listen, I'm a smoke, anyway. Why don't you just let me do it in the house? But she couldn't get past it like, Hey, listen. It's illegal, and I and I got it. It's illegal, and I understand why she did it. But I'm like Mom. II blamed her, which is pro pretty selfish to me, but it was like, Hey is also a way for me to remain safe. I mean, of course we couldn't. We couldn't come to terms on that. But now that the conversation is changing about marijuana, like in different states, that could be an option for parents, right it. It couldn't be an option for me before in New York, but now it could be an option for parents. It depends on where you live. So that's what parents need to understand what safety actually looks like. But, like we said before, what does safety look like for you all right. Your kid is probably gonna get a gun, anyway, whether it be illegally without your permission or whatever, because how many, how many people in the house. I know my parents didn't know if I had a gun in the house. You know how many kids are out here. Their parents don't even know if they have a gun because they're trying to respect. Obviously they're not going in their room. They don't wanna rough when you feathers, but we're not being. We're not being honest with the people that that love us the most, you know. So it it's gonna take a lot of it's gonna take a lot of advocacy work and a lot of people like I said, that identify with these intersecting identities to say, Hey, listen. I wanna teach you. And and I wanna teach you. And I wanna teach your kid how to be safe with guns. I need to teach you how to teach your kids how to be safe with a gun. Maybe it's about working with the with the right, going into the schools, teaching the educators how to talk to their how to talk to the.

tom kottke [he,his]: to the parents about gun safety and get in the the parents to go to classes so they could. They could teach their kids themselves and give them the introduction, and then to bring them out of the house. It's gonna take a lot of work. But I think it's possible. And review right now based on 3 different national surveys, about anxiety, about gun violence and we plugged it into the global burden of disease. condition, weights and anxiety about gun violence is the leading cause of disability, adjusted life years lost in the United States by a factor about 1.5 over back pain. You know. It says if you look at medical medical conditions, back pain, you know, orthopedic problems is the leading cause. But our calculations. It's about 50% higher. Okay? So the anxiety is there? To have you know the conversations and thinking like with Anthony, you know, it's you know you may not. You may may not want your kids to have sex Ed classes but they're going to learn about sex and probably from somebody who's 2 years older than they are, or if if it's your daughter and and she's 16, she he's she's probably gonna learn it from a 21 year old guy, you know, really. And so if you live in a gun culture, you know, your kids are gonna learn about guns. And it's probably gonna be that a friend of theirs, you know. It's highly likely that a friend of yours maybe same age, maybe your tool, or maybe 3 years older. They're gonna find a pistol and start playing with it and saying, Hey, how does this work, you know? Look down the barrel and pull the trigger to see if you can see the bullet coming out, you know. And so it it's it's, you know, we live in a gun culture. And so the safest thing to do is educate the kids about how to deal with it, and one of the advice I'd give is, you know, somebody gets out a gun, and you're over at somebody's house playing. Call home. Get a right

Stanton Shanedling: Clarence.

Robert's iPad: Yeah, I'm here. I'm here. This is great. This is great conversation. I think that you know, when we talk about how do you change? Precisely different?

tom kottke [he,his]: So wait, let me let me. Oh, The Second Amendment guys have gotten us so scared at our place that we don't ask about gun safety on our health assessments. You know, it's it's just like Whoa! We can't do that. Somebody's gonna say, oh, you're asking about gun safety because you want to take away our guns. And so we've got to. If we're gonna have a conversation about gun safety, we need to stick. Stay away from the second amendment and make it clear. We're not talking about taking away your guns. It's it's not, you know. You can have a gun that's legal. It's not smart. But it's legal, and we're talking about. How can children be safe in a gun culture?

Stanton Shanedling: You know it's interesting. And I'm sure Anthony and and Tom, you can reflect on this. It was only what? Maybe a couple of years ago, now that data from the Centers for Disease Control was allowed to be analyzed and and and looked at in order to start assessing gun violence, and then consequently, gun safety, which you know, is mind boggling to me personally, I mean, it's just like what the heck here, but at least at least now we're starting to get the information out. You know, like all the different research and the statistics, and maybe just that would be kind of the the common denominator of knowledge. In order to get the conversations really going nationally. I think.

tom kottke [he,his]: let me jump in stan other other ways to make it safer besides conversation. Thanks to the coalitions Minnesota now has a red flag law which says that you can ask a judge to take somebody's firearm away if they are of a threat to themselves or others. We also have universal background checks. And we're going to be working toward getting guns out of the capital you know you can. You can have a firearm in Minnesota. What's the purpose of a gun during political discourse other than intimidation? So you know, there are other steps, too, besides conversation to increase safety, and one of them we're going to be working on is getting guns out of the capital.

Stanton Shaneling: Good idea, Anthony. Last thought.

Anthony Butler:  you know II I'm just happy that I'm able to have some conversations like these because, II can. I couldn't even imagine myself having conversations like these. A few years ago. So I'm just thankful to this conversation, this discussion. They'll happy to meet people like you with Tom and Clearance along the way to help me shape the person that I wanna be. And I just hope that this hope as far as other people to have conversations, and and they get involved. And to start the volunteer. And you know it's it's it's a great thing for us to have on our minds, especially now.

Stanton Shanedling: Well, I compliment you on your efforts. And I for I hope I'm speaking for the public that we appreciate your insights. Your story telling and your commitment to to change Tom.

tom kottke [he,his]: Last thought. Yeah. For the Second Amendment people. they're more likely to be able to hang on to their guns. If there is gun safety. if! Just if the less of the threat their firearms are to the rest of the public, the more likely they're they're going to be able to hang onto them. So that's a thought. The others, you know the idea of getting out. knowing your neighbors is engaging, engaging socially. To reduce fear because we've we? The recent political movements have been based on fear and which is unfortunate. And so like, get out and meet people. do things. volunteer because we know that volunteering increases wellbeing. Your own well being, and it increases the wellbeing of others. And I think that's the path to safety.

Stanton Shanedling: Yeah, Clarence thoughts. 

Clarence: This has been a great conversation. I'm really glad. II do know that this won't be the ending conversation.  I think we've just scratched the surface, and there's so many interesting things that we can talk about lanes that we can go with this. And so thank you. So you know, I'll tell you this. It's a sad. It's sad that we have to talk about these types of things, but yet the fact that we are hopefully will be wake up calls for a lot of people to increase their awareness, to increase their safety. Thinking overall. And I compliment both you, Anthony and Tom, for your commitment to change. So thank you for being on health chatter. We hope that as more information comes your way that you, you understand that you can always be on health, chat, or podcast and make these podcasts available for communication purposes for the people that you deal with so many, many thanks to our listening audience. We have, we have great shows coming up. We're gonna be. We're gonna be looking at the new drugs that that are coming out for weight management and also a subject of Pharmacy, the idea of many, many drugs. And is this just normal? Fix it alls for for everything. So stay tuned on that. And in the meantime everybody keep health chatting away.