Vaccinations Update

Hello everybody. Welcome to Health Chatter. And today's show is a timely show because we figured the Health Chatter crew figured, wow, we better get a vaccination update, and we've got a great guest. She's been on the show before, so it'll be a surprise in one minute who that is. So stay tuned. We have a great crew. I always like to recognize all of them.

You can't imagine the amount of work that goes on in the background to make these shows successful, including research and production and marketing, etc. And we've got a great crew that does it. Maddy Levine Wolf, Erin Collins, Deondra Howard, background, research, production, all the production to get these shows out to you. The listening to audience falls to Matthew Campbell. Sheridan Nygaard also provides research and marketing and transcription for the shows. And Dr Barry Baines is is with us and gives us the medical perspective on on all our shows. So thanks to everybody. And, of course, a special thanks goes to Clarence. Clarence and I do these shows together, and we like and we figured out, and we had to get to kind of a retirement age to figure out that we like to chat. So it's been, it's been a pleasure. Hueman partnership is our sponsoring agency, and I would recommend highly that you check them out at huemanpartnership.org great community health organization that does wonderful, wonderful things in the community around all things health related. Human partnership.org

check us out. Health Chatter at Health Chatter podcast.com,

all our research, our transcriptions of our shows, everything is on our website. Check us out

and today with a vaccination. 2024,

2025, 2025, we have a special guest with us, Sherlyn la Chapelle, who's,

I don't even know how to describe our collegial relationship, but it's been really, really special.

She provides. Sherlyn provides a unique perspective on a variety of different health issues and and knows how to get the word out. She really, really does. She's

president of nursing, is the answer. She's a nurse consultant in her own with her own practice, current member of the Minnesota Attorney General's drug pricing Task Force, former president of Minnesota black Nurses Association. I mean, I could go on and on, and also i We, I just learned that she and Clarence are kind of connected by being classmates years and years ago. So I asked them if they had a special handshake. But if they, if they do, they wouldn't tell me what that special handshake is, because it is special. But Sherlyn, thanks, thanks again for for for being with us. It's, it's a pleasure to have you. So, all right, you know what I think what I'll do is, I'm going to hand this to Clarence. Clarence, you want to start us out on the on this whole concept of vaccinations. I've got some ideas about some questions. But let's start with you. Can I say one more thing? Sure, I am also a psychiatric nurse practitioner in private practice with a psychiatrist for the last few years. You did wonderful, Stan, wonderful, wonderful. Yeah, we'll keep talking to Charlotte, and Charlotte, we keep coming up with different things. She is such a unique person and also a great friend. So that is something necessarily, vaccinations. Chairman, why? Why? Why is it important to talk about vaccinations? Well, I'm going to kind of veer off to what I heard on the news this morning that scared the the heck out of me, that I'm not trying to be political, but Trump is going to give the Department of Public Health or H, E, W over to that crazy

what is it? Robert F Kennedy, Jr, and who's a anti vaxer and a conspiracy theorist, and who eats, who have.

Arms in his brain. I mean, that's so frightening. So if you think people aren't getting vaccinated now, can you just imagine

what will happen with him on the airways, spewing all these crazy theories, and I won't even say half truths. I'm going to say no truth. How many people will die because of that false information, and everything he's saying has been disproven, I guess, in the 70s, when the doctor in England who made up the false research that could that was not reproducible got prosecuted and lost his medical license, and he might have even gone to jail, but so many, I'm going to say, probably 100 1000s of people have died because of that false information. So I'll leave it there to your next question. Well, actually show and I was hoping that you could rephrase all of that without mentioning names. Okay.

This is, I'm glad we could this is not live, because I know how you feel. Tell us how you really, really feel. But if you could reframe that, that that conversation without mentioning names, but talking about your concerns, I would appreciate that. Okay, here we go. Okay, my concern is that there are a lot of people who have no medical background, including some that do, who are misguided and have false beliefs and who are very who very easily share these along with other conspiracy theories about vaccines causing autism, and that has been disproven over and over again. But the sad part of that are all the deaths that have occurred unnecessarily because of that information that people feel that or believe that it causes autism, and that has been disproven on multiple levels, multiple times. And as we all know, I'm of a certain age. I think polio vaccine came out in the late 40s. I was born in 51 forget that number,

and I have to say I took care of in my 50 years as a nurse, one person on an iron lung at Hennepin County Medical Center. But most people, if you say, Do you know anybody with polio, they would say, No, do you know anybody with what was the other one? Not scarlet fever, but it was another one that was killing a lot of people, smallpox, smallpox, that's it with the s,

and it's just, how can people say they're not going to get vaccinated? Polio is still, well, we've got a resurgence in this country because of all the people who've come from abroad who are not vaccinated, and some people who were born here, young people who are not vaccinated. So it's frightening to me. It's just very frightening.

So, you know,

you know, it's interesting when you just talk to to to friends, colleagues, doesn't matter who, neighbors, whatever. And you get this sense that people feel like they're being poked a lot, okay, vaccinated a lot. And let me and let me just, you know, COVID certainly brought that to to the to the forefront, for sure,

and because it was, it was really a public health emergency and and fortunately, we had the research behind it in order to create these vaccines really quickly, in the in the scheme of in the scheme of things. But yes, there are a lot of vaccines out there.

We are in the, shall we say, kind of the COVID flu season right now, which will circle back to. But let me just, you know, I made a, I think, a short list, it might you probably could add to this. So there's RSV, there's shingles, There's hepatitis B, there's tetanus, diphtheria, there's pneumonia, there's measles, mumps, rubella, MMR, we've also heard outbreaks recently of M pox, which, you know some of us used to call at least, that they have monkey pox. Okay, so

let's first, I, you know, let's just get it off of, off of the table. Let's first talk about COVID.

And you know.

There, you know, boosters, etc, and and flu. So take it away from there.

well, I have heard people say, Oh, I'm not going to get that COVID vaccine. Oh, it kills people. It does this and that. And for those people, I have to say, this COVID vaccine, the vaccine has saved, I'm going to say millions and millions of lives. I think in this country, due to false information, I think over a million people unnecessarily died who did not take the vaccine. And it's heartbreaking. Clarence and I have a friend who used to be a reporter at The spokesman.

I'm trying to think of his name now, and when he was in the hospital, before they intubated him, he said, I wish I had taken the vaccine. Please take the vaccine. And he died the next day. You know what I'm talking about, Clarence. Think it's male. Was it male? It was male, right, right? I want to ask Dr Barry Baines to check to chime in here now, because I think that Sherrilyn has said some very interesting things that I like to hear his perspective on Well, I guess I, when I went through our research and Stan, went through a very exhaustive list of vaccines that would have everybody really think that they're a pin cushion, right, right? They got them all at once. But I guess how I like to break things down, are the kind of vaccines that are sort of needed on what I'll call a seasonal basis. In other words, you know, like we're getting into the flu season.

And typically it, you know, it follows a path where usually November to February. You know, just depends on because all these viruses evolve. That's why, in fact, why we always need new vaccines. Because the viruses, even though they don't have a brain, it seems like like they do, because they evolve and they mutate and they change. So what I always hear from, from like, my communities, and this is more friends that you know, as opposed to, you know, as patients.

But this whole idea that, because we have these phased in

illnesses that usually happen in the winter, there's a premium on several of them to get vaccinated against. And, you know, COVID has followed a course where it still has its ups and downs and and it continues and it's, you know, still here, even more than the way the flu

virus has, you know, stays with us from year to year.

On the flip side, it seems like the new variants in COVID are a little less virulent, a little less lethal to the population. That being said, the population ages and if you have other conditions, even though the virus might not be as virulent for certain people with chronic conditions, that it could really knock them for loop, and they could die from COVID. Still, it's not like what we saw from, you know, three, four years ago, for sure. And so the to me, the big three is, is COVID flu, which we're not in the flu season yet, but we're getting there. And the import, I see those as the top two, and then RSV is important for some populations, is what I'm reading.

And it seems like there's still a little bit of

uncertainty about exactly who should be getting RSV and the effectiveness of the of the RSV vaccine. So I see those three as these seasonal things that hit us every year, year after year. We should get ready for that. And then a lot of the other ones are either one time or two time, like in the shingrix, the shingles vaccine, it's that's never,

it's never an acute situation where, you know, shingles just comes up. It just is there all, all the time, the Hepatitis B vaccines, certainly, the measles, mumps, rubella, you know, those kind of things. I wouldn't say, I want to say that they were one and done, but because a lot of those diseases have left the population this idea of herd immunity, and people have antibodies to these things, which make it less likely that people are going to get those. But those tend to be

you don't need them, except on a multi year basis, and some like shingles.

Vaccine, hepatitis B, once you go through the series, you're done, or at least as of now, as you know, one of the things with science and and research is that we find out new things that always change our hypothesis or change our theories about what is the best practice. And so I it's sort of those two lumps, the what do we have to get like now for this season, and then other ones that are important and that. So there's like two priority lists in my head. That's how I divide it out. Clarence, does that make sense? Wait, it does. And I think, yeah, yeah. I think one of the things I want to do as a follow up. Cheryl, Ann, I want you to tell us a sort of stories of your vaccination outreach, because I think that, I think that

you know, you've had to to come up with some pretty interesting facts and things for people when you go out into community to talk to them, whether they whether they really wanted to, or they're, I mean, Wherever they are on that, on that phase of acceptance, you tell us the story. Okay, I will tell you, okay. I got a lot, I will tell you. I was at a vaccination site and they were given away, $50

Target gift cards. If you went and these, some of them were just bringing others. They were not going to get it. And they said, I don't believe in that. I said, Oh, I get it. But have you ever had polio? I go into the polio thing. But then I said, have you noticed on the news how many people are dying from COVID? The hospitals are full. They have no place to put all the dead bodies, and that was before the vaccine. Now we have something that could prevent it, and you would gamble that you're going to be lucky and never get it. I'm going to gamble on the side of prevention. And let me explain. Some people have long COVID. That means athletes, professional athletes, whose lungs were damaged by COVID, they're lucky if they can walk a block. They're done playing football or basketball. Their careers are over. Also, it could cause blood clots all over the body. People have lost legs, arms. They've got blood clots in their hearts. On our autopsy, it shows that hearts and lungs full of blood clots. So COVID is a deadly killer. It doesn't ask your permission, it's silent, it's sneaky, and by the time you know, you've got it. It's probably too late. So after that spiel, many of them say, Well, I guess I'll get one.

You know, one thing I could, I could say about this is,

you know, for those of us who have been in the public health field,

we've heard these kinds of stories were kind of out of sight, out of mind. Okay, so it's like, Why should I, you know, like a parent could easily say, Why should I give, you know, get a vaccination for my child for measles. I've never even seen measles. I don't even know what it looks like. And you know, of course, then, you know, those of us in the public health field have to say, Well, the reason you don't is because there's been successful vaccination rates that that have, but then when we become lackadaisical about it, boom. Then we start seeing some upticks in measles, and that's happening in in the state of Minnesota, as for instance. Okay, so we've got some other comments here. Sheridan, I see your hand is up. Let's see what you have to say. Yeah, this is just a personal story. Since we were on the topic of COVID, I unfortunately, was one of those folks that lost somebody during the pandemic in 2020

do

she did have comorbidities, and that is a conversation point that a lot of people like to bring up when they when they talk about COVID

I had graduated in college in 2020 I worked really, really really hard to be the kid that sits in the front row, to have the extra tassels to I got 4.0 I really worked hard to be that kid in the front and then I didn't get to walk, and we never got to celebrate my graduation. And that was early in 2020 and I felt that sacrifice was necessary for other people's health and safety, and I will stand by that, but I did lose something there. Six months later, my grandma was diagnosed with COVID, and due to certain political pundits or talking points, the majority of my family did not think that COVID was serious enough to go visit her and say goodbye. I was the only family member that went and said goodbye to my.

Grandmother on her deathbed. I was not able to enter the building. I was saying goodbye through a window. She called me, and she told me, what the hell are you doing out there? Get in here. It's cold out there. Sheridan, what are you doing out there? You gotta you're gonna catch cold. You might catch this COVID or something. She was very delirious at this point, her lungs were failing. Every her cardiovascular system was failing. It was devastating. I could not go and give her a hug to say goodbye. I was the only family member that ever said anything to her. She ended up dying later that night in a room with this is such a small world. One of my good friends that I graduated high school with her grandma was the other person in the room. They died together, holding hands, talking about their grandchildren. And I'm getting choked up right now, but she was a week away from getting vaccinated, and I do believe that if she had been vaccinated, things maybe would have gone differently. So I as as her grandchild, as a public health professional, I think it is my duty to get vaccinated for any communicable illness, anything that can keep myself safe, my community safe. And it's really an act of love and it's an act of service. And I just wish that more people saw it as that. And I understand that we live in an individualistic society, it's hard to think about the community when you're thinking about your own pain and suffering getting a shot, but I just think about other other folks that lost more than just their grandma, that lost their moms, their kids.

There's so there was so much loss, and if I can do one thing to prevent that from happening in my community, I'll get the shot and I'll get the shot again, and I'll get it again, and I'll get it again, and I'll continue. To do it. So that's just my little personal story. Thanks for that. Yeah, so Matthew, I see you're on board here, but then I some thoughts,

yeah, of course. So Sheridan, I don't know if we've talked about this before, but I actually lost my father from COVID in early it was January of 2021,

so maybe a month or so before the wide release of the vaccine for those early stage folks. And

very similar to your experience, the last memories I have with my father. Were dropping him off at the hospital that morning,

and he never He never walked out. He never returned. I wasn't allowed to visit. I wasn't allowed to see him. My father died alone in a hospital room surrounded by medical staff, but we were not allowed to visit. He was in the hospital for over a month on the ICU, and there were some co morbidities, but the point still stands at that time, in those early stages of COVID, there wasn't a solution, there wasn't easy prevention. The only option was to mask up. And unfortunately, my my dad, worked in a industry that he was one of those, like mandatory employees or essential workers. That's what they were called, essential workers. And so, you know, he went to work every day. And this wasn't South Carolina. He wore his mask. He did all the things. But something that's kind of struck with me over the years was

unlike other diseases and other things going on in the world, if COVID felt different in its in the level of political, politicalization that surrounded it, and

it became almost, I mean, I don't know if everyone remembers, but during that time, it was like wearing a mask was a political statement.

Getting vaccinated was a political statement in an in a state like South Carolina, that is, I

uh, heavily leaned toward one direction or the other. You saw these areas where COVID was higher in conjunction with that political ideology or political statement. And so I just question,

if we hadn't had such widespread politicalization or division over COVID Mask mandates, vaccinations, the hoax, all of these things,

would my father still be here? I mean, we can always play that. What if, but it's like

from a public health standpoint, and I know not everyone is in public health, but we have a we there are things in place. There are tools we can use that we that are proven to prevent health and in a time of crisis, us as public health professionals were not relied on. It quickly became, you're no longer the expert. We do not care what you think. We're going to do something completely different. It doesn't matter, and we I've experienced firsthand Sheridan's experience firsthand, so many other people have experienced firsthand the detriment effects of when public health doesn't do its job well, when our government leaders don't do their job well. And now we're left here four years later asking, Okay, how do we move on with our life? What do we do now?

Uh, and there. And so you, you have that grief, but kind of like Sheridan says, My father died begging for a vaccine or treatment and a cure,

it would be a slap in the face to him, for me not to be vaccinated. For me, not every time they recommend

I'm going to get the shot. But what I want to say is I still, to this day, have family members that have deeply rooted political ideology that have yet, that were very close with my father and will not get a vaccine, even though they watch the detrimental effects. So when we talk about this, like risk management, I don't think it's enough anymore to like, Oh no, we know what can happen, and people are still willing to take on that risk, it seems, for some reason,

and that's all I really So surely, thanks for these stories shared in the end in Matthew,

I'm going to ask you this surely you've been in The you've been a healthcare professional a long time, and

many of these, these vaccines that I listed out, have been around us. Do you remember

any of the vaccines that we've had well these years being as politicized as what we saw with COVID,

no, never, not, yeah,

and that's frightening, because this is the bit has been in this century, the biggest killer, I Think, since 1919,

when we had what flu was that? The

Spanish flu or something that wiped out millions of people around the globe. And that's what's so frightening, that something so dangerous and deadly would be politicized, scaring people away from something that could prevent all of this unnecessary death and

just all the complications that come along with COVID, if you were to survive,

yeah, and that's just COVID. I mean, you know, if you know, like I mentioned, we have these upticks in

in measles, for instance, it's it's kind of ironic in today's Minneapolis Star paper, Jeremy Olson, who, again, has been on this show, and he seems to be hitting some of the topics that that that we're very interested in. But he he's got an article today about vaccinations and where, where we're sitting with them.

Fortunately, in the state of Minnesota, as far as COVID is concerned, we aren't seeing as much uptick as we are in some other states, okay, but you know that doesn't mean we should rest in our laurels here for sure. You know, with regards to COVID, so

going going forward on just vaccinations.

You know, I'm concerned, as a public health professional

with the idea that

vaccinations have become kind of like a ho hum type of thing, and it's like, maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't get it, these types of things. How can we break through that barrier, from a communication standpoint

and a medical stand, from a public health standpoint and a medical standpoint, how can we break through that barrier in order to really identify the importance of all of these,

Can I chime in one day? Absolutely, yeah, one thing I've noticed during this political season, Tiktok.

What is it? Twitter, whatever, but we need to get young people making up,

you know, some short commercials about vaccinations, you can prevent this disease, or this could be you. And in case you missed it, COVID kills, and if it doesn't kill you, it could destroy your life. Your life may never be the same again, but we need it so that it reaches out to young people. It's got to be click, it's got quick, it's got to be slick. It's got to be something they pay attention to and that they will share.

Yeah, you know public health messaging was,

was certainly compromised

during COVID, and I think it became it was a function of the immediacy of the situation.

However, some of the other things that we need to be vaccinated against, we don't deal with the immediacy of the situation.

Conversation, okay, and you don't see it in front of you, or people aren't necessarily dying right in front of your eyes, but they're still it's still important to get vaccinated.

Stanton Shanedling: Okay, and even though you don’t see it in front of you or people aren’t necessarily dying right in front of your eyes, it’s still important to get vaccinated. So, Barry, what should doctors be doing to break through the anti-vaccine sentiments going around right now? How should they be approaching their patients?

Barry Baines: Yeah, well, I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I do have some thoughts. First, I want to inject a bit of optimism here—not with my doctor hat on, but just as a person. I’m amazed at how widely available and often free vaccines have become since COVID. Most people probably live within a few blocks of a place where they can get vaccines—flu, COVID, RSV, you name it—and cost isn’t a barrier.

That said, there are challenges. For instance, in many clinics, staffing issues that began during COVID persist. When I go to my clinic, if I ask about a vaccine, they often say it’ll be weeks before they can schedule me. Instead, they recommend going to a pharmacy like Walgreens or CVS, where I can usually get the vaccine the next day.

So access, for the most part, isn’t the issue anymore—though we should acknowledge that, like food deserts, there are also pharmacy deserts in some communities. Still, access has improved dramatically.

When I see my doctor for a regular check-up, they go through my vaccination record thoroughly. I think that’s still happening across the board. But the bigger issue isn’t medical—it’s political. Vaccines have become politicized, almost like a code for your ideology. That’s made the conversation more divisive.

There’s also this perception that changing your mind or updating guidance based on new data makes you unreliable, but that’s the essence of science. Science evolves. Yet, when public health guidance changes—say, about masks or vaccine efficacy—people lose trust. They see it as a flip-flop rather than progress based on new information. That erosion of trust is a huge challenge.

Back when the polio vaccine came out, it was seen as a civic duty to get vaccinated. People lined up willingly. That sense of collective responsibility has eroded, and I’m not sure how we get it back. Doctors can continue reminding patients about the importance of vaccines, stressing that they’re accessible and free, but I think it’s a much bigger societal issue now.

Clarence: Thank you, Barry. You raised some excellent points. I want to add that many of those pharmacies you mentioned are closing down, leaving behind pharmaceutical deserts. So when doctors recommend patients go to their local pharmacy, that’s not always an option. We need to address these gaps in access too.

On a personal note, I remember being in elementary school when they were giving out polio shots. I was so scared to get one, but the program was suddenly paused, and I felt relieved. Looking back, it was such a critical moment for public health, and it showed the power of vaccines to protect us all.

From a community perspective, people’s attitudes are a huge factor. Some think, “Why bother? There’ll be a pill tomorrow to fix this.” It’s a risky mindset because, in the meantime, people are dying. These conversations are essential for shifting that perspective.

Stanton Shanedling: You’re absolutely right, Clarence. Prevention has always been undervalued compared to intervention. Intervention is immediate and dramatic—it’s the “sexy” part of medicine. Prevention, on the other hand, feels invisible. You don’t see the benefit of not getting sick until it’s too late. That makes it harder to communicate its importance.

And here’s a thought experiment: if you have a pet, you wouldn’t think twice about getting their rabies vaccination. It’s automatic. Yet, when it comes to ourselves or our family members, there’s hesitation. Why?

Shirlynn Lachapelle: That’s a great point. People respond to visible results. Take Wagovi, for example. It’s trendy now, especially in Hollywood, because the results are clear and dramatic. We need to frame vaccines similarly—they save lives, even if you can’t see it immediately. You’ll definitely feel it if you get the disease.

Stanton Shanedling: That’s an excellent analogy. And for anyone listening, I want to mention an app called Docket. In Minnesota—and many other states—it lets you access your vaccination records through your state health department. It’s a great tool for keeping track of your immunizations and what you’re due for next.

Clarence: This has been such a rich conversation. Sherlynn, as a community health worker, what do you think we need to be doing better? Do we need additional training to make these discussions more effective?

Shirlynn Lachapelle: Clarence, after working with you and other community health workers has shown me how invaluable you all are. You connect with the community on a level based on trust and shared experiences. We aim to equip you with the right information so you can engage with neighbors and gather community input, helping address barriers to healthcare.

Stanton Shanedling:
Here are some vaccination statistics as of October 24, 2024:

• COVID-19: 4.8% of children and 13.5% of adults have received the updated 2024-2025 vaccine. For adults 65+, the rate is 30.4%.
• Influenza: 25.2% of children and 24.8% of adults have received the flu vaccine. Adults 65+ typically receive a higher-dose version.
• RSV: 37.6% of adults aged 75+ are vaccinated.

Unfortunately, measles is making a resurgence. In Minnesota, there have been 51 confirmed cases this year, primarily in unvaccinated children. Nationally, we see similar upticks. Vaccination drastically reduces severity for diseases like COVID-19 and measles, so it’s crucial to stay protected.

Shirlynn M. Lachapelle:
If I were to give a public message, it would be this: Vaccines save lives. COVID-19 is a killer. If you love your family and care about your community, get vaccinated. Prevention is always better than ending up in the hospital. After spending 11 days hospitalized, I’ll do anything to avoid getting that sick again.

Clarence:
People need accurate information to make informed decisions. It’s not just about protecting yourself but also your family. Taking unnecessary risks affects everyone.

Matthew:
I urge everyone to rely on scientists and experts who’ve dedicated their lives to public health. Avoid getting caught up in misinformation on social media. Trust the systems and infrastructure designed to protect us.

Stanton Shanedling:
You can get your COVID-19 and flu shots at the same time for convenience. However, if you’re sensitive to reactions, consider separating them by a week or so to identify any issues. Ultimately, listen to your body and make the choice that’s right for you. Even if you don’t want the vaccine for yourself, get it for the people you care about.Vaccination is a straightforward decision to protect yourself and those around you. Don’t let misinformation cloud your judgment. Think about your health and the health of others. Thank you, Shirlynn, for being a beacon of positivity in addressing public health challenges.You're you're a ray of sunshine when when we're dealing with these these public health issues, and I will underscore watch out for those our next show that we will be having. We are going to be looking at. The community prevention services. Actually, it's called the Community Preventive Services task force, and they've come out with their community guide. This is for at the national level we'll be doing that also. We're going to be looking at pediatric blood disorders and also veterans health. So we've got some interesting subjects coming up, so keep listening to health, chatter and keep health chatting away.